Sotapatti - hugh, what is it good for?

This I understand (although it has more to do with the internal ayatanani, than the khandhas) - This is just fifth jhana; when correctly translated.
And furthermore, it is the citta that “do not function in any way at all in relation to the internal ayatanani”.

But that is not sotapatti.

What I don’t understand is you.

Already covered.

Thanks, Dan really pushes Steve to be specific. I’ve heard Steve talk about a lot of this stuff on his talks on DharmaSeed, but it’s nice to have that particular interview.

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Since Steve Armstrong interview has been mentioned here - representing rather traditional approach to ‘claims of attainment’ - for completeness it would be interesting to discuss a recent interview with Daniel Ingram, with radically different approach.

He was already mentioned in this thread, as a creator of Dharma Overground and he’s being interviewed by Robert Wright, author of “Why Buddhism Is True” (discussed by @sujato in different thread recently).

To say Ingram is controversial would be an understatement, but he’s also very articulate and I for one would love to see some discussion here on this approach.

What’s especially interesting is his ‘axes of development’ vs ‘half up the mountain’ distinction. The first assumes that one can become sotapanna with ‘irreversible’ insights into reality while still being a complete jerk. The latter approach would see such a person as being still ‘half up the mountain’ since all wholesome qualities have to be developed simultaneously, otherwise there’s no way to attain liberating insight.

It would be interesting to know whether the suttas support the first perspective in any way other than mentioning developing insight and serenity separately. Even then, however, it’s suggested that the other quality needs to ‘catch up’ for progress to be possible.

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I understand and agree with that, but I guess things can go too far in the opposite direction too. While we don’t want teachers/practitioners trying to outdo each other in silly games of one-upmanship, maybe we also don’t want their lips buttoned so tight that most are left wondering if all these path states are chimeras or completely unattainable for most in modern times. The end of the Steve Armstrong interview linked to earlier in the thread was interesting in that regard. He was endearingly coy on his attainments. He’d kind of let the cat out of the bag earlier in speaking in a way that made it obvious, perhaps inadvertently, that he was speaking from experience with regards to at least first path, which the interviewer jumped on and tried to pin down a bit more. He didn’t deny it but remained quite coy (it helps that he’s not a monk which would limit what he could say). You’d expect that if stream entry is a realistic goal at all then, at minimum, some very experienced people like him should be having such experiences (if the path is in any way effective at all). It’s probably a delicate balancing act, but perhaps experienced lay teachers/practitioners should not be too quiet on such things. Perhaps it’s to the good that such admissions slip out every now and then.

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I’d just like to mention more traditional Thai approaches to sotapatti that I like from a practical perspective:

A sotāpanna is one who, to some extent, has let go of attachment to the body by clearly realizing that this body is not the mind and the mind is not the body. The kilesa of greed has been lessened to some extent by the fact that one’s actions and speech will always be within the bounds of the five precepts or, if one is a monastic, within the bounds of the eight, ten or 227 precepts. Sotāpannas are content with what they already have. That does not mean that they have no interest to do anything, but rather, that they will apply their mindfulness and wisdom towards any duties, work, or responsibilities that they may have by doing them to the best of their ability. The kilesa of anger is also weakened on account of its strongest properties, that of ill-will and vindictiveness, being completely let go of – never to return. For the sotāpanna anger will manifest in the form of dissatisfaction or displeasure.

This they can let go of very quickly due to there being no residue of anger’s intensity, ill-will, remaining in their heart. Within the heart they are continually cultivating loving-kindness and forgiveness. A sotāpanna has no fear of sickness or death for they have contemplated death before it actually comes to them…

This is one of the characteristics of a sotāpanna: the strong conviction that they will not do any unwholesome, immoral deeds, for they know the harm or danger that comes from performing unwholesome kamma.

To become a sotāpanna one may use the contemplation of death, but to realize the level of sakadāgāmī one’s contemplation and investigation have to be more refned by either contemplating the thirty-two parts of the body or using the asubha reflections on the loathsomeness or unattractiveness of the body.

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I am struck by how many different versions of Buddhism there are, and yet how each thinks it is the authentically correct one.

In the quote above, stream-entry is equated with realizing the truth of mind-body dualism. In other variants of Buddhism, no such dualism is apparent.

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@Viveka
SN 16.11 says that the Buddha is the only valid Teacher.
With internet, we can have access to that Teaching. We can have access to the EBTs (parallels). We have had access to good grammarians, to settle quite accurately, the major fuzzy points.
But the lexicography is very poor.
It’s still poor - and some people seem to see some great interest, to keep it as such.

Once the suttas, or their extracts, are paralled accurately - and once the lexicography is correct; then all attainments are clearly defined by the Buddha. All of them.
What’s the point to listen to Ajhan telling you about their attainements anymore. Ask them for the suttas. Go check for yourself.

There is only one right path - one right course.

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I haven’t read the entire thread but anything that is fabricated or sankhata isn’t Nibbana which is asankhata.

‘He trains himself, ‘I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.’ He trains himself’, the 13th step of the Anapanasati sutta is about being mindful of something that exists. The object is impermanent and therefore dukkha and hence, not Nibbana. The 6th jhana the attainment of infinite consciousness is the same and isn’t Nibbana- see MN52.

With metta

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The riddle tree sutta was interesting as it shows how different practitioners’ understanding of their respective realisation is different. This means that different stream entrants can understand the different aspects of their attainment differently. We also know that there are 3 types of stream entrants: Ekabiji-sotapanna = enters nibbana after one life.
• Kolamkola-sotapanna = enters ibbana after two to six lives.
• Sattakkhattu-parama-sotapanna = enters ibbana after seven lives.

That there are three kinds of stream entrants suggests that each ones spiritual faculties might be at varying degrees. The Buddha might have explained their attainment to them in terms each of them understood.

If such suttas are like leaves of a tree, it might not look like they have much in common but the uniting branches, trunk and roots may only be visible to a stream entrants with advanced faculties including wisdom (panna).

With metta

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This sutta seems to show the basic -pre-Noble Eightfold Path- practice to become a stream entrant (the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path is also important as it just that which is called as the ‘stream’ in stream entry).

Sāriputta, they speak of a ‘factor of stream-entry’. What is a factor of stream-entry?” “Sir, the factors of stream-entry are 1) associating with good people (kalyanamitta), 2) listening to the true teaching (saddhamma) , 3) proper attention (Yonisomanasikara) and 4) practicing in line with the teaching (dhammanudhamma patipada).” “Good, good, Sāriputta! SN55.5

‘Proper attention’ could include contemplation of the Okkanta samyutta suttas as it contains the knowledge required for stream entrants: Samyutta Nikaya: The Grouped Discourses

I would also have the SN12.15 SuttaCentral and Kalaka suttas.

The suggestively titled Anudhamma suttas SN22.39 etc suggests a definition for step 4 of the above factors for stream entry.

With metta

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Why should we know that. My original question was: what is the purpose of teaching three pre-attainments? How do I know they’re real (apart from someone else saying so), etc?

Now there are three subtypes of sotapannas, and there are the two pre-types of sotapatti (the faith- and dhamma-follower). What is the purpose of this ‘knowledge’?

Let’s assume we find some gandhari-scroll with 20 other sotapanna-subtypes - how does that translate into a meaningful teaching, inspiring, loving, etc?

Is is meant to be awe-inspiring, that the Buddha had such a detailed ‘knowledge’? But it’s not a knowledge really, isn’t it? It’s just a claim. If it activates anything then my encyclopedic brain and my imagination, not my heart, and not my spiritual faculties. Or do I miss something regarding this sub- and sub-sub-sub categories?

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Well, every form of knowledge from an expert in something could be considered a ‘claim’, including the existence of the Higgs-boson. For those with trust as a foremost psychological impediment such knowledge will be seen as ‘claims’ and the claimants will have to prove or provide evidence. The Buddha did just that IMO, as reasonably as possible, by asking to ‘come and see’ -ehipassiko, and not just resorting to faith alone, though some do find the latter a powerful ally to make progress in the practice. IMO it would be suspect if there was only one kind of stream entrant, as different people have different predispositions. It is arguable whether the inner workings of the Path are necessary for everyone- possibly not, just like coding knowledge isn’t a requirement to use and benefit from a computer.

With metta

That’s a generic answer to any ‘problem’ of the teachings. Or did you ‘come and see’ the different sotapanna-types? Even the meditation masters of the last century don’t refer to the subcategories of sotapatti to my knowledge.

I don’t think the suttas would look good if we applied the rigorous methodology of theoretical physics to it.

For whom is it necessary? Who benefits from knowing that there are three sub-types, and not five, or two, or x-2*4? And why is it not suspicious that there is only one once-returner?

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I don’t know who gave that as a generic answer, but it is spicific, in this question.

There is functonal MRI evidence of mindfulness making physical changes in the brain and possibly some fMRI evidence of jhana as well. If there were stream entrants willing to try there maybe some changes to the medical prefrontal cortex where the ‘self’ is introduced into our experiences. This evidence would be different from that applied to theoretical physics as what is being measured are very different. The subjective elements of stream entry might require a ‘softer’ more qualitative approach. Experiences have a different methodology and a burden of proof in scientific research than the ‘harder’ quantitative research. Similarly with behavioural elements of morality, generosity etc. However my suspicion is that the glimpse of Nibbana would require a level of clarity of fMRI scanning that wouldn’t be currently available. This would be the gold standard test while everything else would be proxies.

Maybe it would motivate someone to strive more and gives some indication as to what areas of practice to focus on (in terms of fetters). Some veriation in once-returners in their level of sexual activity is recorded but these are mostly in the field of the knowledge of the Buddhas and is said to be imponderable for others.

With metta

Well, I came but I don’t see it. So my question was, did you come and see?

What I understand from your answer is maybe neuro-science will solve it, maybe it’s useful to someone. Yes, and maybe there is really a neuro equivalence to Christianity as well?

There is a truth that we can find looking into our mind and that is indisputable: anicca for example, or the bliss arising as a consequence of fixing our mind gently to an object. This is truly a ‘come & see’…

There are different registers in the suttas, and so far all I have seen is that sotapatti falls into the register of faith.

Obviously, perhaps more, to me and I have attempted to be nuanced about it always. Of course you are right in that for most people it will be a matter of faith. There is a description of the view from the mountain outpost- if you have some faith in the path you might see it for yourself. I agree there is little mileage in it if everyone keeps it just to themselves. I don’t intend to answer questions endlessly without adequate reason, but enough for someone to know the path there, which I have done all this time. Its only for the sake of Dhamma dana and it may not be convincing to everyone, which would be perfectly understandable.

with metta

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To know is one, and to both know and see, is another. To have faith is yet another. Faith (saddha) eventually leads to knowing and seeing (janati… phassati).

At Sāvatthī. “Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing. Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.

Someone who accepts these principles after considering them with a degree of wisdom is called a follower of the teachings. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Someone who understands and sees these principles is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.” SN25.1

Other similar occurrences in the suttas:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#okkanta

To say it in another way, the path of stream entry is due to a holistic development in the faculties of virtue, faith, wisdom etc. and not a random occurrence according to EBTs.

with metta

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Through samadhi, soon after experiencing unconditional happiness, the mind is free from bondage, but still there is suffering, from feeling, body, soul. So one will keep on meditate to be happy everyday. Then Having found this 10fetters from google and then this explain a lot, really. One can pick on next fetters kamaraga, vyapada. Long story short , soon after taking these off, one doesnt need that happiness meditation so much anymore.

So it is useful to have a map. To know which stage, and what’s next.

And still on time counting since that meditation which one can lost sexual attachment, lost interest for games, films, entertainment. Still doing reality check, real or false enlightment.

Mostly for householder meditation aiming for nirvana stop at experiencing anatta, as many ppl said its not good for householder. Likely to provoke new bad karma in family. Since time only serve as concept for the one.
Sorry for my bad english.

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Hey guys, yesterday I realized sotapatti, yippie!! And that’s how I did it, and that’s what happened”
As soon as someone did this to his neighborhood, ppl just being sceptical all the time.
Over time He realized not all people want nirvana,
For those learning claiming would make people envy, since some practice years.
He’d just feed the craving from his feeling by doing claiming, ego arise etc, it makes him suffers too.
Seeing how his perspective of life change become so much signifcant that not claiming would just fine.
For others would just identify him by; ‘oh he lost his anger, awesome’
But inside of him, no more suffering from the mind, feeling and body is indescribeable (He still suffers from his citta though, not arahant yet) - the pain is inevitable but the suffering is gone.

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