This man gave a well balanced response to the Buddha- elsewhere the Buddha says a person’s attainment (character-personality) can be known after associating with them for a long time and by a wise person.
With metta
I’d like to help you by investigating further for second fetter : vicikiccha - doubt
Surely this is from our mind, our thought, the reason why mind good at differentiating things bcoz it’s significant for our survival, but for everthing else we compare, striving for more, suffer more.
Will you ever start comparison if there’s no doubt in you?
The next question will be
Why doubt?
Fail to understand that life is full of uncertainty?
Making other people’s thought about you become yours?
Is your experience not real enough for you? Have you lived out your life over the cloud? Etc… till you find the source of your thought
“Private reality” , would you consider “Social reality” “Public reality” is the reality itself?
Why claim if pointless, then you must ask the right question : when claiming would be useful?
Do you think it’d helpful or ppl would consider your words more seriously if they believe you have gone beyond? Or motivate yourself to dig more?
For those stream enterer is kinda life without identity, doubt and fear. Dont you think it would make a significant change for someone like that?
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Thanks!
Doubt has helped me in the past to improve my meditation and understanding of the dhamma. And it prevents me from believing a false teacher, running after a false or inaccurate teaching that doesn’t help me and losing years of my life with hope, disappointment and frustration. I see frustrated meditators a lot, and I don’t want to become like them.
That’s a difficult question. I don’t know what ‘real’ refers to. I neither live in a dream, nor in an ‘absolute reality’, so I don’t know.
With ‘private reality’ I mean that somethings is totally real for me, but has no way to be communicated to others. ‘Social reality’ is what can be communicated, e.g. ‘Watch out, there is a car!’, or ‘Focus on the breath’ or ‘confront your fears’ etc. etc.
I don’t know what ‘reality itself’ means.
That’s a good question, and I’m not sure I can answer that. A claim can arouse curiosity and investigation. A claim can be like advertising “If you want to be clean, buy this soap, it has these chemicals, is good for the skin, and kills bacteria…” If there was no advertising I probably would not come to have the choice to buy that soap at all.
Do you mean if the claim would make a difference? I don’t know - many people say if you’re a stream enterer then making a claim makes life more difficult because of trolls. I don’t buy that argument. What I can imagine is that as a stream-enterer one would want to become an arahant and dedicate one’s time to the practice and not waste time with fruitless discussions.
Contrary to many peoples’ opinion here, to me stream-entry is not well defined in the suttas. If there was a clear-cut definition that is not conceptual but would convey a mind-mechanism that I can understand, I could use it as a ‘ladder’ for my own development.
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There is a thin line between doubt and sceptical. Sceptical would makes you want to know more, trying to find out, you move into the unknown lead you to the truth, it’s neither believing nor non-believing.
Doubt mostly unnecessary , misleading, not believing, comparing things for no purpose, leads to atheist. If you have doubt you wouldnt want to know more, you move with ignoring the truth and finding every proof to prove thats wrong. At least thats the meaning for me 
This ‘I dont know’ is very important and keep you practising, what you gain, is your life perception shifted from what you already know and it is fruitful for you, you make it your new life reality since your perception change by seeing something beyond
Then your ‘private reality’ would be social reality if you meet some other stream enterers. Cheers lol
Yes reality is never real if we try to live life from our limited identity.
Im actually not saying the claim but being sotapanna , free from the mind
Yes lots of us been thinking over the cloud. Like attain this then you’d be a godlike person. We put stream enterr like angels ‘if u dont see an angel , u dont see a stream enterer’
These stages sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami are just preparation for your enlightment, less entanglement from your mind, feeling and body.
Dont overlook the promises that you’re not gonna be borned in this low lvl plane etc, it’s never intended for us to buy.
Admit we’ve only limited understanding of karma, never seen those eons of previous lives , not knowing yet if u gonna be borned again or not, or be born in a better plane.
Be there is this map or not, u’d get there eventually when you get in jhana then investigate ur suffering sources, maybe long turns.
To look into your own mind, how it keep producing identities, strengthen them, producing doubts, keep u striving for more by comparing, producing fears, keep u on with cheap hopes.
To look into your own feelings, how it keep u thirst for short term fulfilment
To look into your own body, how it keep you with its excessive need.
To be able to free from these absurdity, whether you enlightment or died trying, still this is a wonderful life to live in.
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It’s not that easy at all, at least for me. Till now these fetters keep bumping on my door, but just know it everytime it appears that makes it dissapear right away.
It’s right when you said suttas is just texts not the buddha actually said. The fetters is not as simple as the explanation from suttas.
My view would be attaining jhana would be easier.
As a sotapatti have to be aware of own thought every moment, try not entering jhana in daily life and see how it comes out.
Maybe we can discuss further for the fetters :
first three are from the mind,
4th from feeling
5th from the body
6-10th from what you called you, some call this citta, some call your consciousness, some call your soul etc…
From the mind ; which keeps on creating illusions of identity, doubt and fear
Lets forget what suttas explanation for a while and see it , explain it from your own consciousness ;
-
Identity
Have you lose the identity hanging on you since the day you born? Including all you belongings which is just for strengthen your identity -
Doubt
Do you still judging, comparing? Will you still suffering if you stop comparing? -
Ritual/Rules attachment
Do you still have fears? Of those who you put above you and those from unexplain things who under you?
Try imagine someone without any identity, doubt and fear. Can you hurt someone like this?
Throw him to jail, can he suffer?
Take away his belongings, or even his families , can he suffer?
Remember he has no identity, not a husband, not a wife, not even a parent.
Or throw him to hell, can those fires and torturing can hurt someone like this?
Even to lose the first fetter one might took all his lifetime, how can attaining jhana is harder?
On first day someone took off his 3 fetters , he told his friend ; even if you can call god or demon to throw me now to hell, deepest one, I’d suffered no more. His friend look at him with sad eyes ‘wat happened? I’d always here to help if anything happen you know’ 
lol
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Are you taking the terms still from the suttas?
Number 1. would be sakkāya-diṭṭhi, i.e. identity-view whereas you seem to refer to identity in general
How is your 3. connected to rituals/rites?
But if I forget the Pali terms then I would still be interested to know what you mean when you say “you”. It can be 1. the intentional movements of the mind 2. the unintentional, spontaneous movement.
So I could stop conscious willful comparing, but the spontaneous comparing of the mind is quite basic for consciousness - if the mind stopped comparing and seeing differences then we would end up in arupas, no?
To all three combined: How is this just sotapatti? To lose fear is described as for the arahant. Also to lose all identity sounds very demanding - what else is left to do?
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I dont know about westerns, but here eastern, too many suttas, too many methods, too many sides, but some just like to stick to the core
For example : sakkaya ditthi - identity view . We just stick with identity, instead of the explanation throw away false identity, hold on right identity (its not even beyond duality like what buddha said)
You cant blame, its 2500 years ago, people, mind, feeling, body, avijja kicks in. Best option for us is to look for some same suttas, the core, the fact, not the opinions
See, what you call by “me” is a voice inside your head , but thats not really “me” anymore bcause
Your mind shaped by your neighborhood, community, your body, etc
Your feelings shaped by your thought and your body
Your body shaped by its need
Then left this “me” , you can call your conscousness/citta/the one who know shaped by previous lives, samsara, avijja
Without jhanas, its too difficult to identify the source of your every thought. Is it from your mind? Your feeling? Your body? Your citta? Mostly its a mix of them but which source, u got to investigate clearly.
A sotapanna, who beyond his own mind , still suffers from feelings and body, citta
If his family killed, he still suffers from his feeling, but not from mind, he would hurt with tears, but he wouldnt gone crazy bcause of the pain
As we know, suffering from your own mind can cause double triple even 100x from the real pain, isn it?
But arahant nothing can hurt him, not even anagami can be hurt by this.
Yes thats why it is said it’s dukha to be in this world. They keep coming like trains, but now you know where it comes from which stop you taking action for further absurdity. Overtime of practices it’ll gone as soon as it come out. Thats why a sotapanna wont doubt himself is a stream-enterer.
But what if he’s false awakening , lets see if we throw him in hell, if he still suffers then yes it’s false awakening (just jk) . Its not he wont be born in lower planes , but it’s the hell not willing to let someone like this to get in, what’s the fun of the torture? No more identity, doubt and fear. The punisher would be sad and leave the job. Please do think of these carefully.
Lets take a look at the time of buddha borned in india, hindu land, hundred thousands of gods and goddess, those who have lots of fear would go to temple. Some stupid rules would be set just for you to calm yourself down
Nowadays its only left us with this : we believing someone big sitting up there watching our every move
we believing supernatural, ghosts, etc ready to eat you everytime you enter the darkness.
Can you meditate with fear? Tracing the source of your fear will come out here eventually , if you have lost your identity of course.
Thats why as we’re on the right path, Never underestimate anyone/anything, not even ghosts, we might become just like them if we collect bad karmas.
Never overestimate anyone/anything, not even devas gods, or buddha himself, bcause worshiping him will never get you there.
Dont make transactional wishes with gods or ghosts too, just respect and pray for their happiness if you do really meet one.
And dont take my words, please look from within, if it doesnt fit you, you can always go back to suttas
-believe in buddha dharma sangha (as this is the other path for enlightment too, the devotion path, mahayana)
Metta🙏🏻
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I found an excellent publication that summarizes the different textual variants regarding sotapatti, and the concerns connected with them:
Joy Manné (1995). Case Histories from the Pāli Canon, II: Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmin, Anāgāmin, Arahat–The Four Stages Case History or Spiritual Materialism and the Need for Tangible Results. Journal of the Pali Text Society, 21, 35-128.
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Here is another sotapanna description from ajahn amaro too
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I came across a rather inspiring video recently posted on Dharmaoverground by Daniel Ingram:
My friend Richard, a lay practitioner with a remarkable retreat resume over a very long period of time, has died of lung cancer, passing at home while attended by his family.
He was a deep and profound practitioner though generally quiet and very humble about his remarkable attainments and insights.
Not long ago, we did a video interview in which he talks about what is like to be dying while yet quite awake:
The video is often quite humorous and light-hearted (in spite of the context). It starts off with a discussion of his experiences with lung cancer but then goes into quite a varied account of his practice and related experiences over the years (all kinds of topics are touched upon, e.g. Dhammaruwan and jhana at different points). It seemed like he was quite a low key kind of guy (not hugely liking attention) but he obviously had put in a huge amount of sitting time on the cushion. Wasn’t sure where to post this here, but I recalled that there was some stream entry experiences described in this rather old thread, and there’s one recounted in this video too. Dharmaoverground has a somewhat idiosyncratic understanding of such experiences, but the practice career described in the video seemed fairly classical and mainstream to me. Anyway, I thought it was a rather beautiful interview.
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