Spin-Off from Bhante Sujato’s Essay: Self, no self, not-self…

I have said i before but one cannot say that worldling have a perception of a permanent self.
But they have a perception of a stable self. Very different. Many peope with a stable sense of self, are materialist and do not believe at all that the self is permanent or survives death in any way.

One must distinguish stable sense of self from permanent self.

So, what provides every living being with a stable sense of self? What provides us with a stable sense of self that we never experience that we awaken as different persons from day to day?

It’s called the binding problem. I suspect you’ll find suggested answers by investigating manasikara.

Later buddhist have worked this all out. They simply teach that we have a distorted perception and wrong understandingo f the nature of the mind. This is caused by defilements.

Once defilements are all uprooted we develop a correct understanding of what mind really is. But people do not believe this, i notice. They do not seem to be open for the fact that they do not yet understand the nature of mind.

It is completely normal, i feel, that the texts sometimes speak about the mind in a way that aligns with are wrong understanding of mind, as conditioned, as a stream of vinnana, local, humane etc. Sometimes they do not.

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Not self can be seen in different ways.

Not self as in terms of existence.
In SN44.10, Buddha say if there is a self, he will side with the eternalist. Which means where is a permanent, unchanging existence of self. If he said there is no self, then he will side the annihilationists. Which means all existence ends.

Not self shows there is an existence which is not permanent and continues on the cycle of birth and death as long as kamma does not end.

Not Self in terms of powerless.
MN35
When you say thus: ‘Material form is my self,’ do you exercise any such power over that material form as to say: ‘Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus’?”

MN 141
19. “And what, friends, is ‘not to obtain what one wants is suffering’? To beings subject to birth there comes the wish: ‘Oh, that we were not subject to birth! That birth would not come to us!’ But this is not to be obtained by wishing, and not to obtain what one wants is suffering. To beings subject to ageing…subject to sickness…subject to death…subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair, there comes the wish: ‘Oh, that we were not subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair! That sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair would not come to us!’ But this is not to be obtained by wishing, and not to obtain what one wants is suffering.

Dispeller of Delusion (Abhidhamma commentary)
233. But it is no-self (anattã) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because there is no exercise of power in these three instances [namely,] “this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up”; and it is void of this quality of having power exercised over it (vasavattana). Therefore it is no-self for these four reasons [namely.] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not behaving as desired (akamakariya) [and] because of exclusion of self.

In other words, if there is a self, one can don’t age, sick and die. One can be forever young and healthy and not die as one has power over existence.

Not self as stated categorically by Buddha
AN3.136
(3) “Bhikkhus, whether Tathagatas arise or not, there persists that law, that stableness of the Dhamma, that fixed course of the Dhamma: ‘All phenomena are non-self.’ A Tathagata awakens to this and breaks through to it, and then he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyzes it, and elucidates it thus: ‘All phenomena are non-self.’”(phenomena here is the translation of dhamma)

Dhammapada Verse 279: “All phenomena (sankhara) are without Self”; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

These shows that dhamma is by nature not self. There is not a self to be found. It also indicates that not self is a not negation of a self. Rather it is wrong view that cause a view that there is a self in dhammas. And it is ignorance that blinds us for not seeing that the nature of dhammas which is not self.

Maybe wrong understanding of the working of the mind both causes and is caused by afflictions. Probably the psychological self is the real – hm – atavistic condition. I do believe Buddha makes clear that his is new knowledge on this, so no wonder (some) people sob a lot when they begin to get a handle on the ramifications of his teachings.

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Like the EBT teach…one must know sankhata and asankhata. Here on the forum almost all attention goes to sankhata. To what is seen arsing and ceasing and changing. All is always about formations seen coming and going…

Any talk about something stable (the EBT do mention it), something that is not seen arising, ceasing and changing, not desintegrating… seems taboe or immediately related to the concept of atta. But atta and asankhata are very different concepts.

In my opinion it is also ignorance to denie, not accept, reject asankhata, or turn it into something that is also arising and ceasing.

I believe sankhata as well as asankhata are not some atta, but EBT teach for a reason that the Buddha taught a Path to the unconditioned, to the stable, the not-desintegrating, the deathless etc.

I think the problem is that we want to grasp all intellectually, rationally.

What is a atavistic condition?

The suttas are daunting. Many people are still getting a handle on how to approach them even, so. In my experience, spending time on the Unconditioned leads to via negativa, mysticism and concepts of void … and burnt crepe, because I am busy paying attention to this instead of it :neutral_face:

Recently, I have been looking at the Upanisasutta SN12.23. Myself I replaced the term vital condition with proximate cause, revised SN12.21 to this

When this exists, that is (iti imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti); when this has arisen, that arises (imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati). When this does not exist that is not (imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti); when this has ceased, that ceases (imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati).

and am eyeballing the two side by side.

Definitely a problem with Westerners - obviously this was rejected by the post-structuralist opposition to grand narratives, including and probably especially Reason - but well, the dialectic there has become the rational and irrational - I got big doses of that in my spanking hot avant garde MA. Total headache.

I don’t suppose I could have written anal.

Hi,

It may be useful to for me to identify the “secret name,” or naturalist principle, in Agni that can be found in the Rgveda. It is mentioned about 30 times: Apām Napāt, Child of the Waters. It also appears as apā́ṃ gárbhaḥ embryo or seed of the waters.

RV II.35 - which is in one of the family books and definitely much older the Mandala X - is dedicated solely to him and figures him nicely.

I’ve looked into Apām Napāt a bit and think his trace goes all the way back to Egyptian religion and comes from Sirius, whose appearance on the horizon marked the beginning of the annual flood of the Nile.

Yes, although a great challenge to understanding an-atta is to understand what is meant by atta.
It’s telling that although the Pali suttas seem to make this clear, and describe the benefits of understanding it at length, there is a huge amount of perplexity and debate on the matter.

From Ven. Sunyo:
“The relevant passage is the sutta’s opening line which says the following: “Bhikkhus, indeed whatever recluses or brahmans (who) regard the self in different ways, in so regarding, they all regard the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one of these” (see Bodhi 2017, 33).20 This passage is attempting an exhaustiveness claim; any recluse who has any view of the self will actually be mistaking the self for one or more of the aggregates”

So perhaps my point is that this seems to go beyond questions of vocabulary or translation, and is about our ability to reckon with these ideas.

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Yup. It’s pretty advanced stuff and highly radical in its thinking, even to this day. So, there’s no need to rush, because … "Just as the great ocean has one taste, the taste of salt, so also this teaching and discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation.”

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Yes. It’s hard to understand the solution (‘what exactly is nibbana…’) if we’re still struggling to comprehend and articulate the problem.

It’s very difficult for me to say anything. I had a moment, though when I was in seclusion and was being subjected to kind of forced teaching, I was sitting there thinking along the lines of “am I being neurolinguistically programmed,” and kind of freaking. So I was thinking about my freaking. I walked away from that and said, “You know what it’s like? It’s like in Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back when Luke goes into the cave and encounters Darth Vadar and fights him and then sees his own face underneath the mask.”

I was so excited. I was like that is wow, crazy now and awesome. It’s extremely important to do all of this in a safe space. You can’t have people who aren’t good, doing this or trying to carry it forward in any way.

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Yes atta is self while sankhata is conditioned. they are two different concepts. When sankhata is seen as atta is due to ditthi, mana and lobha arises. Sankhata is not seen as atta when dosa, moha or alobha, adosa or amoha arise.

What about asankhata? Where does that refer to?

In my opinion these ideas that a Buddha has no sense of self at all are wrong. Also a Buddha thinks…if i do this, i will reap this and that results. It shows a normal sense of self. “If i go teaching and people do not understand me, that will only be burdensome for me”…or…“if i do not seek some shade now, i will get sunburned”…“let me stretch my back because it hurts and if i do that the pain will vanish”…“let me go some time in seclusion now”, etc.

My mother has Alzheimer and i can tell you from experience that when one literally sees, for example, the body as not me, and not mine, one is really sick. Such a person sees in the mirror, and does not recoginise that person as ‘that’s me’. Or, this also happens, some people with braindamage see body parts as not me, not mine, and even try to remove them.

For me it is quit sure that when one literally sees the body and mind as not me, not mine, one has a huge problem. But i believe a Buddha sees body and mind as me and mine, just in as far needed to stay alive, healthy, not hurt etc. Unlike the defiled mind this is not based anymore upon slavery, force of habit. It is not an instinct of me and mine making anymore.

That instinctive nature of me and mine making (anusaya) is gone but not a me and mine making that is just needed from day to day.

The crux is, i feel…there is just a great difference between the mind that makes use of identity, me and my making, emotions in a free manner, unfettered, no slavery, and the mind that is fettered by identity, rigid, slave of anusaya, governed by a blind and blinding will.

To think about the uprooting of all anusaya as some inability to become emotional, an inability to deal with body and mind as me and mine, is, i believe probably wrong. The difference is: one is rigid and habitual, forced, instinctive (when all anusaya are not uprooted) and the other is free, unfettered, playful, not forced, not instinctive (all anusaya are uprooted)

I have for long also seen it differently and also believed these stories about an inability of becoming emotional, a total absence of any me and mine making and sense of self. Now i think these stories are wrong.

I feel the above is based upon EBT and much better corresponds with how Buddha’s life is described in the sutta’s.

The taste of Nibbana is a taste of freedom not of inability.

That refers to unconditioned, Nibbana

Yes, but if this Nibbana refers to the state of an arahant, lets say it does, which some buddhist also see as something temporary, why even use the word asankhata?

I feel, reading the sutta’s, it is not difficult to understand that the Buddha did not search for something that is unstable, liable to arise and cease. In this sense he did not even seek the highest heavenly realms with a an almost endless lifespan. Nor was he satisfied with temporary states of happiness as in jhana.

He clearly sought the unconstructed, non-manifestive, that what is not liable to arise, cease and change. That what is…reliable and can function really as protection, a refuge because it will never fall apart. The Stable.

If even Nibbana would only be some name/designation for a temporary conditioned state that ceases at death of the arahant, that does not at all correspond to what he sought and probably we all seek:

"the truth …the far shore …the subtle …the very hard to see …the freedom from old age …
the constant …the not falling apart …that in which nothing appears … the unproliferated …
the peaceful …the freedom from death …the sublime …the state of grace …the sanctuary …
the ending of craving …the incredible …the amazing …the untroubled …the not liable to trouble …
Nibbana…the unafflicted …dispassion …purity …freedom …not clinging …the island …the protection …the shelter …the refuge …” (SN43.14-43)

How can one equate this with a mere cessation with nothing remaining or arahanthood?