Stream-Entry— thinking about the prerequisites for laypeople

Discussion
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Hello friends, this is my first post here.

I wanted to ask if you have any opinions on this sutta, AN 5.265, particularly in light of another recent and on-going discussion on here, about celibacy being necessary for stream-entry.

This sutta lists five qualities that when unabandoned make one incapable of stream-entry (let alone the jhanas and higher attainments).

These qualities seem more subtle than the stinginess, or possessiveness, that ordinarily surrounds sexual activity and sexual relationships, which makes it seem unlikely that one would become a stream-enterer if one hasn’t given up such coarse types of attachments. What do you think?

I’ll add some of my thoughts regarding these qualities below.

”Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry… the fruit of once-returning… the fruit of non-returning… arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one’s monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one’s family [of supporters], stinginess as to one’s gains, stinginess as to one’s status, and ingratitude.”

Presuming that this is correct, and not just some arbitrary opinion pieced together, I was wondering how this could potentially translate to a laypersons qualities, and what they must abandon to reach these fruits. I’ll add some of my thoughts but I’d also like to read yours. Maybe you think I’m wrong about something.

To add a general note— these things are hard to quantify. People have different characters and predispositions.

I’m sure the stream-enterer’s citta would still have fluctuations and moods, so the descriptions under the points below is more like what I imagine they would be generally leaning towards, what they value deep down, not necessarily what they live up to at all times.

1. Stinginess as to one’s monastery [lodgings]

Though preferences would still be there- appreciating some environments and certain individuals over others for example- you wouldn’t have any possessiveness towards any one place or community, so moving somewhere else wouldn’t cause great suffering. This town or that town wouldn’t make much difference to you.

2. stinginess as to one’s family [of supporters]

Maybe this could apply to friends, coworkers, or literally one’s family.

Having emotional distance and independence from others. Not being affected if they “support” you or not. Most of all you wouldn’t get jealous, envious or possessive of them and their attention.

3. stinginess as to one’s gains

I suppose this is about monks and nuns requisites. That would mean lack of attachment to wealth, material possessions, clothes, and similar.

4. stinginess as to one’s status

This one is interesting, and it’s a deep rooted attachment. I don’t know what this lack of “stinginess” as to one’s status precisely means, but I’ll speculate. Another sutta touching on this point is AN 3.101, which makes it clear that ‘thoughts of reputation’, which is closely related to ‘status’, can only get “treated” once the previous coarser defilements are out of the way, which I’ll highlight below.

“In the same way, a bhikkhu who is committed to the higher mind has coarse defilements: misconduct by body, speech, and thought. A sincere, capable bhikkhu gives these up, dispels, eliminates, and obliterates them. [1]

When they have been given up and eliminated, there are middling defilements: sensual, averse, or cruel thoughts. A sincere, capable bhikkhu gives these up, dispels, eliminates, and obliterates them. [2]

When they have been given up and eliminated, there are fine defilements: thoughts of family, country, and reputation. A sincere, capable bhikkhu gives these up, dispels, eliminates, and obliterates them.”

So eliminating thoughts of reputation seems like a very high achievement. I would guess that “stinginess as to one’s status” isn’t quite on the level as this, and instead describes something coarser.

To try to put this point in simple terms, you wouldn’t be in great suffering if everyone turned their back on you, or simply didn’t value your opinions much.

Or, in less lofty terms, you wouldn’t act on purely selfish motives, even though you still have thoughts of such nature, and emotions centering around this. But despite that you would most of all be driven to act for your own and others benefit, rather than trying to look good or impress others out of vanity, let alone trying to gain power or control over others.

5. ingratitude

Taking things for granted, being arrogant perhaps, being blatantly ungrateful to those who have previously or is currently supporting and helping you in various ways. Like your parents, or friends, for example. Expecting a lot but appreciating little.

______________________

To sum up, I think these points paint a picture of someone who have trained their citta away from stinginess and possessiveness— to no longer perceive any lasting safety and happiness in material things, material comforts, relationships, or on a more subtle level, their feelings, and sense of status & power in the world.

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Thank you for this precious dhamma contemplation :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: .

I had not studied this groups of suttas before. I glanced at the suttas before and after it.

It looks like a collection of suttas beginning at AN 5.254 – Five Kinds of Stinginess – and concluding in AN 5.265-271 – what you quoted in your post. Also, this collection is nested under a larger section called “Ordination.” The following section is called “Abbreviated Texts on Appointments.”

So, could it be these suttas focus on

[giving] up and [cutting] out these five kinds of stinginess

especially within the context of community. As such, the teaching on obtaining arahantship

arahattaṁ sacchikātuṁ

(or perhaps hoping to obtain it) is used for contrast.

Something like:

If all one’s focused on is obtaining arahantship but neglects the canker of stinginess, then they really don’t understand arahantship.

In SN 1.32 – “Stinginess” – Bhante Sujato includes a cross-reference to the parable of the widow with two coins in Mark 12:41-44. The sutta reads:

Some who have little are happy to provide,
while some who have much don’t wish to give.
An offering given from little
is multiplied a thousand times.

By the way, that also reminds me of the five loaves and two fish :upside_down_face: .

I realize I’m going way out on a limb saying this, but I’m seeing two enlightened teachers kind of talking to the same thing. That spiritual attainment is in proportion to virtuous living – in this case, generosity.

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Welcome to the forum and thank you for your thoughtful and well mannered post. I read the sutta you linked as well as the similar ones before it in the Anguttara Nikaya. I also read your post a few times and you make good points.

Looking at stinginess of these five (dwellings, families, material things, praise, and lack of gratitude and thankfulness) from a broader focus, I think it sheds light on the overall progress that one has made on the path and how it affects one’s access to or hinderance to jhanas, stream entry or even basic meditation. Stinginess is, as you pointed out, is a subtle aspect of courser hinderances. If a person is attached to anger, lust, agitation, etc., they will be hard pressed to get into a lower meditative state, much less a jhana or stream entry.

I think it’s important in this case, and in every case, to truly see and understand the downside and danger of these attachments, not just in this life but in the kamma that will carry over into another life. To know this is the path to Right View and Right View will make it impossible to indulge.

So, with Right Effort and restraining one’s attachment to dwellings, families, material things, praise, and lack of gratitude and thankfulness, one can get to the point where they can see any latent stinginess to these and once abandoned, they can be free of them and can cultivate generosity. This will free the mind so that it will not be hindered to enter jhana states.

To relate this to sexual activity, I think there is a continuum that goes from consuming hunger to revulsion. Somewhere along the line one can move on that continuum from desiring sex to being dispassionate to disinterest to abandonment which is similar to the stinginess model. I guess the question is, which is enough: dispassion or disinterest or abandonment?

These are just my thoughts about what you wrote.

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Somewhat related - AN6.68 says that stream entry is impossible for one who delights in company (due enjoying seclusion being impossible for who delights, etc). It seems to me sexual intercourse (non celibacy) would be impossible without delighting in company. This seems more of a direct example of sutta “proof” in regards to the topic than a couple of the laypeople mentioned in the other thread, given that they were likely statistical anomalies, and were taught directly by the buddha

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Hello @Craveminerals :folded_hands:

There are many previous posts about stream-entry. I particularly like this one:

Several lists outline key elements of stream-entry:

  • Four Factors of Stream-Entry: Faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, and established virtue.
  • Five Qualities Leading to Stream-Entry: Faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.
  • Understanding Impermanence in all conditioned phenomena, including the sense-bases, their objects, the contact between sense-bases and objects, feelings, consciousness, and cravings (SN25).
  • Virtue, faith, listening to the true Dhamma, good friendships, and wise attention to phenomena.

Your question is specific to laypeople, and some of the suttas quoted here about stream-entry are directed towards monks. The Eightfold Path is the same for everyone, but whether one is a layperson or a monk affects the pace of progress. It’s a trade-off between safety and speed. Laypeople have fewer rules to follow, while monks may progress faster and even reach arahantship in this lifetime if they are fully committed to the practice.

A sotapanna (stream-enterer) is disenchanted with views of self, attachment to precepts and rituals, and doubts about the Buddha. They also abandon the gross forms of sensuality associated with unskillful behaviors, but not sensuality itself. This process of abandonment occurs at a later stage and is not limited to sexual behavior alone. It is catalyzed by proficiency in meditation (MN 14), and celibacy is usually necessary to attain such proficiency.

There are many suttas clarifying that sotapannas and even once-returners can engage in sexual activity (See AN 6.44 and AN 10.75). Vacchagotta, in MN73, distinguishes between celibate lay followers and those who “enjoy sensual pleasures” (kāmabhogi). The latter group is still considered noble. The descriptions of kāmabhogi disciples suggest they don’t necessarily accept celibacy as part of their practice. In the suttas, groups of lay people often describe themselves in this way:

“Sir, we are laypeople who enjoy sensual pleasures [kāmabhogi] and living at home with our children. We use sandalwood imported from Kāsi, we wear garlands, fragrance, and makeup, and we accept gold and currency. May the Buddha please teach us the Dhamma in a way that leads to our welfare and happiness in this life and in future lives.”

One of these suttas is AN8.54 Dīghajāṇusutta. In this sutta, the Buddha also describes a “gentleman” (a lay follower) who is accomplished in virtue as one who follows the Five Precepts, with the third precept specifically concerning the avoidance of sexual misconduct. This emphasizes that for lay followers, the bare minimum expectation is to avoid harmful sexual behavior—not necessarily to practice celibacy.

In AN 9.27, the Buddha defines a sotapanna (stream-enterer) as someone who has fulfilled the four factors of stream-entry and follows at least the five precepts. The precept regarding sexual behavior focuses on avoiding sexual misconduct as the minimum, not requiring celibacy.

Additionally, Snp2.14 Dhammikasutta also states that being faithful to one’s partner is enough to be considered a “good disciple,” though celibacy is seen as the most sensible option for those who are able to maintain it.

A sensible person would avoid the unchaste life,
like a burning pit of coals.
But if unable to remain chaste,
they’d not transgress with another’s partner.

There’s also the practice of uposatha, where lay followers dedicate themselves to more than just celibacy, but to general sense-restraint. This shows that while celibacy can be a useful practice, the Buddha seemed to consider it too strict for most lay disciples, recommending it only for short periods.

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AN6.68 concerns monastics, not laypeople. This topic is concerning the prerequisites of stream entry for laypeople. Once one is a sotapanna, that’s a different circumstance. And if one is a monastic, it’s a moot point.

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Hmm I’m a bit confused. I see that monastics are the audience in the sutta, but are you saying the path to stream entry is different for lay people - that they have different requirements for the actual attainment? If something is non negotiable for stream entry, I don’t think it really matters whether one is lay or monastic, assuming stream entry in this lifetime is the goal.

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I was just saying that you quoted AN6.68 (a discourse directed at monastics) and applied it to laypeople. There are lots of things that laypeople do that make it more difficult to attain stream entry.

AN8.25 says:

“Sir, how is a lay follower defined?”
“Mahānāma, when you’ve gone for refuge to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, you’re considered to be a lay follower.”
“But how is an ethical lay follower defined?”
“When a lay follower doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, commit sexual misconduct, lie, or consume beer, wine, and liquor intoxicants, they’re considered to be an ethical lay follower.”

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I see, thank you for clarifying. I took the question as “a lay person who’s goal is stream entry”, and answered in regard to the fact that the goal and what must be done to reach it are the same for anyone, lay or monastic.

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MN71

When he said this, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Buddha, “Worthy Gotama, are there any laypeople who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, make an end of suffering when the body breaks up?”

“No, Vaccha.”

“But are there any laypeople who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, go to heaven when the body breaks up?”

“There’s not just one hundred laypeople, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, go to heaven when the body breaks up.”

MN73

If the worthy Gotama, the monks and the nuns were the only ones to succeed in this teaching, not any chaste laymen … laymen enjoying sensual pleasures … chaste laywomen … laywomen enjoying sensual pleasures, then this spiritual path would be incomplete in that respect.

But because Mister Gotama, monks, nuns, chaste laymen, laymen enjoying sensual pleasures, chaste laywomen, and laywomen enjoying sensual pleasures have all succeeded in this teaching, this spiritual path is complete in that respect.

Here we find three modalities of practice. For monastic practice, arahantship in this life is the greatest attainment. For celibate lay practice, the highest attainment is non-return in this life. For those who continue to enjoy sensual pleasures, the highest attainment is “living beyond doubt, free of indecision, self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instruction” (i.e., stream-entry and once-returning). For all three, arahantship is possible close to death, but it is usually easier for monastics.

The idea that the way of practice and objectives are the same for monastics and lay followers does not find support in the suttas. The Eightfold Path is the same, but the details of practice (and the possible fruits) vary. Monastics are not obligated to materially support themselves or others but are entirely dependent on others and must maintain the greatest degree of sense-restraint and dedication to their practice. Additionally, they are required to submit to the Sangha and follow monastic rules. Lay followers usually need to work to support themselves and others, but can live in a relatively independent way, with less training rules. Enjoyment of sensual pleasures is permissible but not recommended, and those who renounce these enjoyments generally advance faster in their practice.

Monastics generally have more requisites to attain stream-entry than lay followers because living in disaccord with the monastic rules (or imposing difficulties for the monks in this regard) is an obstacle to practice. Such disaccord is usually motivated by unwholesome mental qualities and denotes a lack of faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Monastics usually must adhere at least to the Ten Precepts, and when fully ordained, follow all the training rules. It’s not just about being a virtuous person, but also about fully committing to the Teacher’s instructions and (PS, see next response) for the best interests of the Sangha and the followers of the Teaching.

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Pj1:

“Well then, monks, I will lay down a training rule for the following ten reasons:

for the well-being of the Sangha, for the comfort of the Sangha, for the restraint of bad people, for the ease of good monks, for the restraint of the corruptions relating to the present life, for the restraint of the corruptions relating to future lives, to give rise to confidence in those without it, to increase the confidence of those who have it, for the longevity of the true Teaching, and for supporting the training.

A monk causes harm and acts against the following when he breaks even the smallest rule of the Vinaya: the well-being and comfort of the Sangha; the restraint of bad people; the ease of good monks; the restraint of corruptions relating to the present and future lives; the rising of confidence in those without it and the increasing of confidence in those who have it; the longevity of the true Teaching; and the support of the training.

That’s why the very same action — for example, having sexual intercourse — carries very different consequences for a lay person and a monk.

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Please stay on topic. The original post addresses

There are other topics directly addressing celibacy.

Thanks

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What is required is a mind that is inclined toward stillness. I think curiosity and interest and the courage to go into that stillness helps a ton.

If the mind is preoccupied with these things, I think they would fall into the general category of hindrances/distractions.

Generally, anything that keeps the thinking, discursive mind active is going to be an obstacle. So it is pretty easy to see what our individual obstacles are and what needs to be worked on.

When we sit and the mind is not settling into stillness - the agitation that is present then and there is the quality that is an obstacle for us at that time.

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Did you mean once-returners?

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