Stream-winning and anatta

Is stream entry arrived at by insight into anatta, or is there more to be realised/attained for stream entry to be achieved?

3 Likes

The three fetters must be overcome, which also links to understanding the four truths:

“there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers” MN 118

With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening." AN 3.87

What are the first three fetters? 1. Views regarding self. 2. Doubt regarding the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. 3. Clinging to rites & rituals.

In detail:

  1. Views regarding the concept of self. This may be fleshed out in two ways:
    a) seeing the five aggregates as self and clinging to the aggregates.

“with the arising of your vision, your desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging might be abandoned. Then perhaps you might think: ‘Indeed, I have long been tricked, cheated, and defrauded by this mind. For when clinging, I have been clinging just to material form, I have been clinging just to feeling, I have been clinging just to perception, I have been clinging just to formations, I have been clinging just to consciousness.”

b) Holding views regarding self. Such views and any self-identification with such views must be abandoned.

When he attends unwisely …one of six views arises in him. The view ‘self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive not-self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with not-self’ arises in him as true and established; or else he has some such view as this: ‘It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from birth, ageing, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say. Mn2

2 . Abandon Doubt about the Blessed One, the Dhamma and the Sangha:

One should be “endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One’
One should be “endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma’
One should be ‘endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha…who have practiced well… who have practiced straight-forwardly… who have practiced methodically…worthy of respect…’AN 10.92

3 . I couldn’t find anything concrete in the suttas regarding the fetter of adherence to rules and observances.

Overcoming the first 3 fetters links up with the Four Truths:

“He attends wisely: ‘This is suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing”. mn2

2 Likes

@DaoYaoTao 3 . I couldn’t find anything concrete in the suttas regarding the fetter of adherence to rules and observances.

Here’s a good thread at DW on this topic:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28127

Seeing the aggregates, dependent origination, three marks as well.

[quote=“Mat, post:1, topic:5192, full:true”]
Is stream entry arrived at by insight into anatta, or is there more to be realised/attained for stream entry to be achieved?[/quote]

I would suggest that seeing only ‘anatta’ is not enough. Instead, unshakeable conviction (destruction of doubt) in the path must also be achieved. This means the liberating (soteriological) effect of anatta or non-attachment must be completely discerned. There must be a ‘taste’ of Nibbana (peace/freedom).

[quote=“JMGinPDX, post:3, topic:5192”]
I couldn’t find anything concrete in the suttas regarding the fetter of adherence to rules and observances. Here’s a good thread at DW…[/quote]

This fetter is sīlabbata-parāmāsa, which includes the word ‘sila’ (‘morality’). I think breaking the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa possibly also includes not using morality in any way that leads to attachment; that morality is only discerned for its liberating (soteriological) purpose; rather than in relation to “doing good kamma for me”.

:seedling:

1 Like

How would you distinguish between Sotapanna (stream enterer), Sakadagami(Once returner), Anāgāmi (non-returner) and Arahant apart from the obvious: number of rebirths remaining and the number of fetters released?

I think the following sutta has some interesting points:

All these paragraphs end with the assurence that this person is freed from the bad destinations of rebirth.

2 Likes

Here are some of the most basic requirements for stream entry (Sotapanna):

1)possesses confirmed confidence in the BuddhaDhamma…Saṅgha, and possesses the virtues (5 precepts) dear to the noble ones, unbroken … leading to concentration.(SN55.2)

2)possesses confirmed confidence in the BuddhaDhamma…Saṅgha, plus first 3 precepts and 4 samavaca.(SN55.7)

3)“possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha, in Dhamma, in the Saṅgha, He dwells at home with a mind devoid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishment, one devoted to charity, delighting in giving and sharing.”(SN55.6)

4)“Good, good, Sāriputta! This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view … right concentration.

_“Sāriputta, this is said: ‘A stream-enterer, a stream-enterer.’ What now, Sāriputta, is a stream-enterer?”

“One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is called a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan.” (SN55.5)

Is this a prerequisite or a cause (of stream entry)?

with metta

Do we need to practice these to achieve stream entry, or are they an ‘automatic’ result of attaining a ‘glimpse of nibbana’ in stream entry?

with metta

I think it is practices like this:

Then Punna, a son of the Koliyans and an ox-duty ascetic, and also Seniya a naked dog duty ascetic, went to the Blessed One, and Punna the ox duty ascetic paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down at one side, while Seniya the naked dog-duty ascetic exchanged greetings with the Blessed One, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he too sat down at one side curled up like a dog. MN57

Any practice which is not thought through (see the recent thread on Yoniso), which is thought to lead to salvation, could count.

with metta

Destruction of doubt, comes with understanding the dependently originated nature of experience dispersing the thicket of views:

“The cosmos is finite… The cosmos is infinite… The soul & the body are the same… The soul is one thing and the body another… After death a Tathagata exists… After death a Tathagata does not exist… After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist… After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have.”

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, “As for the venerable one who says, ‘The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,’ his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress.” AN10.93

with metta

Keeping the precepts- being generous as a result of kindness towards oneself and others. Approach with an open mind, intent on hearing the true Dhamma. AN10.76

Contemplate:
1st Noble Truth: Suffering (aggregates, elements, sense bases as impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta)
2nd Noble Truth: Cause of suffering (Dependant origination)

We see that the aggregates are causally arisen, we then understand how insubstantial they are. We see therefore that they are impermanent (when causes cease-effects cease) , and therefore suffering (dukkha) as our impression of permanency and self turned out to be incorrect and we found ourselves living in an illusion (created by our misperception of the aggregates). Experiences just arise and pass away, one giving rise to the next and this is all these is. No doer or agency is seen. Seeing the illusion penetrated, we gain faith in the Buddha, his Dhamma and the Sangha. All diverse viewpoints about the universe comes to an end, from seeing the true situation and we go beyond doubt, never to follow paths without consideration/those of other teachers/based entirely on belief.

3rd Noble Truth: Experience cessation - (the arising of the Dhamma eye, if I am not mistaken)

4th Noble Truth: the path to follow for final Nibbana.

with metta

1 Like

I would say ‘yes’ we need to practice to achieve stream entry per (SN 70).
“Bhikkhus, I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once. On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress."

However, the level that one can achieve or how soon one can achieve depends on the five faculties of each individual. For example, the five faculties of Kolaṃkolo is weaker than Ekabiji and Sattak­khat­tu­paramo is weaker than Kolaṃkolo. (SN 48.24)

So, due to the five faculties differences, the factors need to be Sotapana can range from the most simplest to the most difficult. Simplest would be to have firm confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, and 5 precepts (SN55.2). The most difficult would be to have the knowledge of dependent origination, the 44 cases of knowledge (SN12.33), and 66 cases of knowledge (SN12.34) by clearly see and thoroughly penetrate them with wisdom.

I would say yes and no. Why yes? Because a Sotapana today is an Arahant in the future; it’s just a matter of time and how he develop his five faculties. Why no? One would have to abandon lust or hatred, or delution to have glimpse of Nibbana as per (AN3.55) or dwell in 1st Jhanna to Sannavedayitaniod as per (AN9.47).

1 Like

It depends on the person- some might find this the most difficult practice. As you said, it depends on their faculties.

Based on the faculties some need less instruction. Ven Sariputta, before he became a monk, famously heard only 4 verses about cause and effect, before he became a stream entrant.

We may not need to go very deep, especially is our kamma is good.

with metta

I think we are going to come back to the same argument what Anatta means.
Anatta may be realised by many ways of seen it’s many characteristics.(ie: Anicca and Dukkha)

A short time before dying the Buddha reminded us (he had said it before) that we needed to take refuge in ourselves first and then in the Dhamma. So no more need to take refuge in the Buddha as anyway he is not around to provide this refuge, while the Dhamma is (if we find it , I mean the true Dhamma, among all that has been transmited to us over the past 2500 yeras).

Regarding the Sangha, the meaning was the Noble Sangha, i.e. made of those who have at least attained Stream-entry. As today we don’t know who has attained what (thanks to some rules in the Vinaya) then forget about taking refuge in the Noble Sangha.

So to me the second fetter is made of two components: 1) having some doubt about the Dhamma (e.g. rebirth) and 2) having doubt about ourselves in regard to using the Dhamma for our own full liberation from Dukkha.

2 Likes

Taking the three refuges is just an expression of belief in
a) the Buddha’s achievement of nibbana,
b) a belief in the efficacy of the path he taught and
c) faith that some people(ariya-sangha*) achieved nibbana by using the path taught by the Buddha
(*as opposed to bhikkhu-sangha see below)
If you don’t believe those three things then that is fair enough.
But if you do believe those 3 statements, then you have in a sense already taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. The simple act of believing that the Buddha taught the cessation of suffering and a true valid efficacious path to that cessation, means that you have in a sense taken refuge the Buddha. Especially if you are actually practicing what he taught :slight_smile:

He said that long before His parinibbana as in sn22.43

dwell with yourselves as an island, with yourselves as a refuge, with no other refuge; with the Dhamma as an island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge. When you dwell with yourselves as an island, with yourselves as a refuge, with no other refuge; with the Dhamma as an island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge, the basis itself should be investigated thus: ‘From what are sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair born? How are they produced?’ sn22.43

I don’t see any conflict here. Ultimately, the path, is all about taking refuge in yourself and seeing the truth for yourself. We are all, as Buddhists, aiming for our own nibbana and our own direct understanding of the actual dhamma. Again, I see no conflict between that and taking the three refuges. Think about it.

The point is that by believing what He said, you have in a sense taken refuge in him. The refuge is about faith in the buddha’s nibbana and faith in the path he taught that leads to nibbana. If you really don’t believe the Buddha achieved cessation of suffering/nibbana/awakening and you really doubt the efficacy of the Buddha’s path/teaching, then no refuge. But, If you do believe those things and you are practicing the teaching, then you have already taken refuge in the Buddha and the dhamma.

Some people like to go through the ritual of taking refuge. It’s a beautiful thing, but it is not blind belief and it won’t make you enlightened.

Keeping in mind my points above. As we all know, or should know, unless we have our heads buried in the sand, there are plenty of bad monks and bad buddhists (and plenty of good monks and good buddhists). In that regard, the ‘political’ news posts on the watercooler are important to keep us, as a community, aware of what is going on. See here On Buddhist Religious Extremism

So taking refuge in the Buddha, the sangha and the dhamma are not mindless beliefs or mindless rituals (not for me anyway). They are in fact simply acknowledging that you believe the Buddha attained nibbana, you believe the buddha taught a true efficacious path to nibbana and that the sangha is a community of people that practised the path and achieved nibbana. That how I frame it anyway.

Note: Refuge in the bhikkhu-sangha seems to be the most problematic.
Disclaimer: absolutely no reification or objectification of any kind is intended this post.

1 Like

It seems to me that behind @alaber’s posts there is a very specific and curious conspiracy theory about the Bhikkhu/Bhikkuni Sangha.

In simple English this theory suggests that the contemporary institution of Sangha is nothing​ but a way, almost a scam, some smart and lazy people found out to wear different robes, not work nor pay taxes, and get four basic requisites for free. :sweat:

This is for this theory denies totally the possibility that a Buddha established through the Vinaya and Patimokkha the foundations and boundaries of a model of right livelihood he Himself identified as the most likely to allow for awakening. Hence adherents of such view usually consider suttas like DN2, AN6.45 and MN 107 just not authentic.

Actually this conspiracy theory seems to rely on the hypothesis that just before his passing away the Buddha ordered the dissolution of the Sanghas. And hence the reference to the exhortation for us to be islands or refuges to ourselves.

If you look carefully you may find so-called EBT scholars who somehow adopt such sort of conspiracy theory. And of course it shapes most of their so-called academic insights into a model of Early Buddhism void of Patimokkha or Vinaya.

It is as well a pet point of view of those who cannot find either ways to further profit from Dhamma or are unable to move themselves towards the level of renunciation required for the holy life to take place and its fruits be heaped. These peculiar individuals are usually looking for ways to identify in EBTs evidence of non-ordained arahants.

I acknowledge this is off topic and so is this whole branch of the discussion. I have created a separate topic to discuss this curious manifestation of doubt and skepticism.
Skepticism and critique of the Bhikkhu / Bhikkhuni Sangha