That, surely, is subjective reality, our personal world. The Buddha repeatedly advised against speculation about objective reality ( whatever that is! ), referring to it as thicket of views.
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Yes, that sounds right. MN117 distinguishes between mundane and supramundane Right View:
“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor…"
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi
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Is that a personal assumption or something you found in the sutras?
The way I read the suttas the path factor of right view is as simple as having as most basic working assumption the four Noble truths and its ennobling tasks: to seek full understanding of the experience of suffering , to seek to abandon or let go of the underlying cause of suffering, to seek to verify the ending of that suffering and to seek to bring about the factors or circumstances which lead to the ending of suffering.
Stream entry is all about taling the first step toward fulfilling the first ennobling truth, as it requires a deep and practical insight into the impersonal tragicomedy of dependent origination of suffering is all about.
Mind that it is only by attaining to right knowledge/insight (samma ñana) and the consequential right liberation (samma vimutti) that all the four ennobling tasks one took as ‘homework’ first place are finally fullfilled …
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No. The suttas mentioned by me and wippet SN12.49 and MN117 support this. And it is also the traditional theravadin view.
as per MN 117 there are two types of right view
- sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā
- sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā
No 1 is what what we have
No 2 is only possesed by a sotapanna
I understand 2 as being the one possessed by an arahant, as it is free of all āsava.
What I said above is pretty much based/aligned with SN12.49.
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@Gabriel_L
with respect 
My thesis::
SN 12.49 refers to a sotpanna
First lets look at the title. Ariyasāvakasutta, this suggest it refers to one of the four ariyas. “one who stands knocking at the door of the deathless” -this would suggest that noble one is not an arahant.
“one who has entered the stream of the teaching”-strongly suggest an sotapanna.
now, i feel the difference in our opinion is here - “knowledge about this that is independent of others”
my understanding is: a truly personal knowledge is only possible when one has seen truly for himself with direct vision or paññā. So what is the difference between paññā of a sotapanna and an arahant. sotapanna has no doubt what so ever that the four noble truths are indeed true(samma ditthi). while an arahant has has taken the N8FP to completion.
“one accomplished in view” - this refers to the very same right view mentioned in MN117.
Both sotapanna and arahant posses this “anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā” type of right view. while only an arahant is fully in possession of rest of the path up to ‘right release’
An arahant has fully eradicated the āsavās. Sotapanna is guaranteed of eradicating the āsavās in the future(sammatta niyama).
yes, of course
I agree and believe that is what is presented in the gradual path and I try to apply the method of study that I believe the Buddha gave for his teaching: SuttaCentral
That study reveals to me, it’s doubt in the Triple Gem that is meant in the Fetters and it’s study and testing of the teaching that overcomes it. By the way, having understood and tested the teaching, one gains confidence in oneself also.
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In my own search on SuttaCentral to answer the OP, I discovered DN33. Wow. It’s like that chart in its summary and yet mind boggling. It summarizes everything. And it is also the longest sutta I’ve found. I cannot get through it it one meditation session. It even breaks SC-Voice. I have absolutely no idea how Ven. Sariputta managed to give that Dhamma talk after an entire night of the Buddha’s own Dhamma talks. Simply amazing.
My effort right now is to continue studying DN33 and patch up SC-Voice so that it can handle DN33.
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Please note that DN 33 has been categorised as “late sutta” i.e. not taught by the Buddha or his close disciples (see Some inauthentic passages in the Early Buddhist Texts)
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Wow. Thanks for the caveat. I had taken the Buddha’s approval of Sariputta’s Dhamma talk a bit literally and perhaps too enthusiastically. Sariputta’s declaration that these things should be recited and agreed upon in the abhidhamma sense is actually quite helpful to me since it ties together the reading of the older suttas which deal with a single facet of DN33. For example, now I understand the “Gods of Streaming Radiance” mentioned in MN1 as “united in body but diverse in perception”. Etc.
However, I will now be on the alert for inconsistencies and ask about them on SuttaCentral as I encounter them.
Thank you!
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Hi Karl
For me DN33 is the start of the process of making an index, which the AN completes. I don’t think it summarises everything, e.g. I believe the Path of Stream Entry is not mentioned.
In any case it does not take any note of the second part of the instruction from the Buddha to compare teachings, which I link to and you don’t seem to address.
good luck with your studies
best wishes
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It does discuss stream-entry:
Four factors of stream-entry:
associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.
Four factors of a stream-enterer.
A noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha:
‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’
They have experiential confidence in the teaching:
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—realizable in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.’
They have experiential confidence in the Saṅgha:
‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, straightforward, methodical, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a teacher’s offering, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’
And a noble disciple’s ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, uncorrupted, unflawed, unblemished, untainted, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion.
My first goal is to understand what the Buddha said. The finer points of comparison are at this point a distraction. I’m still grokking things like “gods of creation”. How should I address the second part without understanding the first part?
Also note that in this day and age, having confidence in the Saṅgha is challenging when such a mixture of Saṅgha’s exist. For example, I would be cautious about any Saṅgha whose teacher punches students. This is actually what has driven me to the Pali Canon–the great confusing mass of things labelled as Buddhism. I had given up on Buddhism as hopelessly confusing until my friend became a monk and showed me the Pali Canon and SuttaCentral. Bliss.
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that’s great, thanks. I think my point is still valid, but comparing DN33 and DN34 to the AN would be useful to settle that.
In any case the second item, the Four Factors of a Stream-Enterer is discussing the Fruit of Stream Entry not the Path and one might see the link here with the Fetters, for me:
experiential/unshaking confidence/faith in the Triple Gem, is the opposite of doubt (the second Fetter) and
unbroken noble ethics, is the opposite of Identity View (the first Fetter, which deals with thought/‘the mind’) and Holding to Rites and Rituals (the third Fetter, which deals with word and deed).
I think it’s a very good and important goal. For me, that is the same as saying ‘my first goal is developing Right View’ and I’ve found there are two parts of that to do, in the application of the first three items (factors) of the Path to Stream Entry:
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identifying re-definitions (that is, noble definitions) of essential/key terms the Buddha gave, such a kamma, dukkha, cause, nibbāna … trying to understand ‘gods of creation’ is a finer point that I believe comes naturally, after the path is clarified and walked. I have compiled the key term re-definitions I have found, elsewhere. Doing this clarified the first three Noble Truths for me.
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applying the study method he gave, to clarify the Path, the Fourth Noble Truth.
Yes, ‘Saṅgha’ is another key EBT term to understand and I have written my investigation on that elsewhere. In brief: it most likely meant, ‘community’ of noble ones, not the company (parisā) of monks. The community of noble ones can be found in the four companies: laymen, laywomen, monks and nuns. I believe, part of wrong view is mixing up a (spiritual) community, that goes beyond temporal and spacial boundaries, with a ‘company’ that does not. It’s similar to the conversion of Dhamma-vision (dhamma-cakkhu, an internal/experiential event) to Dhamma-wheel (dhamma-cakka, an external symbol). The latter could be the first Buddhist symbol - the start of Early Buddhism.
And yes, there are a few occurrences of laypeople supposedly going spontaneously to the Buddha, Dhamma and Order of Monks for refuge. It is part of Early Buddhism, but not part of Dhamma practice IMO.
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Thank you for saying that. For me that is indeed the whole Saṅgha as well.
Hi Karl
I’m not sure if you misunderstood me, or if you were just giving your meaning of Saṅgha, but I don’t say the four companies are Saṅgha, but the noble ones within the four companies are Saṅgha. The majority of the four companies would not be noble and would not be Saṅgha, to me and as I understand the early use. As a common person, though, one might feel like part of a community, e.g. the community of Buddhists.
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Yes, I agree. But unfortunately these days there is no way of knowing who is ariya in the case of monastics as they have a rule of non-disclosure.
Fortunately before dying the Buddha told us to take refuge in ourselves first and then in the dhamma. The challenge of course is, after 2500 years of developments, to find the real dhamma. That’s where this forum and having good dhamma friends come to help.
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Thank you. That is what I meant to say.
I understand Ethics to be covered by only the major monks’ rules = the first 17. The non-disclosure rule, if true and not exaggerated, is not in those 17.
For me, ‘knowing’ cannot be done of another, even if they disclose, whether now or in the Buddha’s time, only confidence that they are telling the truth, because they can clearly explain and distinguish at least the Path and Fruit of Stream Entry and the fruit is observable in them.
I never saw it translated as this first, then that.
yes, I agree
I’d say, ‘thorough investigation of the Buddha’s teaching, following his advice on how to investigate’ and true Dhamma friends can help there.
best wishes