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Studying the first five fetters

IMO

what ever view should be seen simply as “a view”. when its verified beyond doubt it is " Right view". Rejecting or accepting any view without verification simply amounts to belief.

:anjal:

hmmm. But then, is Right View at the end of the Path, only? Perhaps … might there be deepening in Right View?

if this is a zero- sum state, on or off, … it is hard for me to understand the point of a Path, or practice, or ordination,…

Yet one can see these as having beneficial effects, at least sometimes. Perceiving such data, confidence may increase; informed by data, Views might gradually adjust,…

Are you talking about “Right View” according to the suttas, or are you talking about a personal conviction? They may well be different.

So logically rejection of rebirth ( for example ) is a belief, or more accurately, a disbelief.

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This is how i see it:
A person lost in the jungle hears of a path out of the jungle. gaining confidence that such a path exists that person thoroughly searches for that path. discovering that path, he stands before the path. Seeing for himself the path leads strait out of the jungle, he puts his first step squarely on the path.

SN12.51
Buddha teaches dependant origination and says

"Good, good, bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in me about this, bhikkhus, resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt about this. Just this is the end of suffering.”

SN12.51
Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is making a thorough investigation, in what way should he thoroughly investigate for the utterly complete destruction of suffering?”

“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“Here, bhikkhus, when he makes a thorough investigation, a bhikkhu thoroughly investigates thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: what is the source of this suffering, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? When what does not exist does aging-and-death not come to be?’

“As he thoroughly investigates he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has birth as its source, birth as its origin; it is born and produced from birth. When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no birth, aging-and-death does not come to be.’
……{rest of the the steps in dependant origination}

SN12.49

Rather, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has knowledge about this that is independent of others: ‘When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. When there is no ignorance, volitional formations do not come to be. When there are no volitional formations, consciousness does not come to be. When there is no consciousness, name-and-form does not come to be…. When there is no birth, aging-and-death does not come to be.’ He understands thus: ‘In such a way the world ceases.’

“Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple thus understands as they really are the origin and the passing away of the world, he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.”

Not everyone will fully be able to see rebirth at stream entry- at least there are research to look at nowadays, but during the time of the Buddha, they would have accepted it on faith. However the the point I was trying to make was the passage before that where he says ontological reality and nihilism is wrong view. Then he says reality can be explained in terms of causes and effects, aggregates in the process of perception -this isn’t reality as we know it. It’s more from the Matrix… (the 12 factored DO is only an example of this underlying principles).

Also SN22.90 SuttaCentral

giphy%20(1)

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I wonder if this is an example of skillful means, focusing our attention away from ideas about “the world” and focusing instead on “our world”. What we actually experience, and how it arises and ceases.

It reminds me of the Loka Sutta.

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I think its more than just subjective and objective reality. This is about how our 3 dimensional world is created bit by bit, causally.

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Totally understand that view point. I think, and totally could be wrong, but the acceptance of kamma comes with the acceptance of rebirth. Do you think in the west we are conditioned to “believe or disbelieve” things because of Judeo-Christian systems we grew up in? Not sure if you are Western but the question still stands.

west is great! east is great! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I was just trying to explore what might be the difference between knowledge and direct vision reported in the suttas. way i see it, all knowledge is acquired. reading(eyes), hearing(ears), linking
thought upon thought(thinking) ,so on. It’s sort of alien.
I feel knowledge is like a treasure map. map is not the treasure. i must
use the map to go and dig up the treasure. only then will i get the benefit of the map. But the right map is absolutely necessary.

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I have added emphasis to the words above which seem imo confusing. It does not seem possible or necessary that before taking a first step one can see that a path in a jungle leads straight out. The jump from “hearing about” to “seeing for himself” is not insignificant or miraculous.

Likewise, a person starting the Dhammic journey in the present life may not yet know by direct personal experience the entirety of the Path or even “have” complete fully articulatable Right View.

:slight_smile: i think empiricism has limits as a tool.

you a right of course. But what i am maintaining is , right view or “samma ditthi” as a path factor is only established when one becomes a sotapanna. That is the person accomplished in view,who has entered the stream of the Dhamma,one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.

May be we can say, that person stands on a fully built path sloping towards nibbana. But we are still building our path.

The way i understood it, that right view as a path factor is not a view per se. But a direct vision of the real nature of the aggregates of experience.

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That, surely, is subjective reality, our personal world. The Buddha repeatedly advised against speculation about objective reality ( whatever that is! ), referring to it as thicket of views.

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Yes, that sounds right. MN117 distinguishes between mundane and supramundane Right View:

“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor…"
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi

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Is that a personal assumption or something you found in the sutras?

The way I read the suttas the path factor of right view is as simple as having as most basic working assumption the four Noble truths and its ennobling tasks: to seek full understanding of the experience of suffering , to seek to abandon or let go of the underlying cause of suffering, to seek to verify the ending of that suffering and to seek to bring about the factors or circumstances which lead to the ending of suffering.

Stream entry is all about taling the first step toward fulfilling the first ennobling truth, as it requires a deep and practical insight into the impersonal tragicomedy of dependent origination of suffering is all about.

Mind that it is only by attaining to right knowledge/insight (samma ñana) and the consequential right liberation (samma vimutti) that all the four ennobling tasks one took as ‘homework’ first place are finally fullfilled …

:anjal:

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No. :anjal: The suttas mentioned by me and wippet SN12.49 and MN117 support this. And it is also the traditional theravadin view.

as per MN 117 there are two types of right view

  1. sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā
  2. sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā

No 1 is what what we have
No 2 is only possesed by a sotapanna

For convenience, MN 117 trans. by Bhante Sujato

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I understand 2 as being the one possessed by an arahant, as it is free of all āsava.

What I said above is pretty much based/aligned with SN12.49.

:anjal:

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@Gabriel_L
with respect :anjal:

My thesis::

SN 12.49 refers to a sotpanna
First lets look at the title. Ariyasāvakasutta, this suggest it refers to one of the four ariyas. “one who stands knocking at the door of the deathless” -this would suggest that noble one is not an arahant.
“one who has entered the stream of the teaching”-strongly suggest an sotapanna.

now, i feel the difference in our opinion is here - “knowledge about this that is independent of others”

my understanding is: a truly personal knowledge is only possible when one has seen truly for himself with direct vision or paññā. So what is the difference between paññā of a sotapanna and an arahant. sotapanna has no doubt what so ever that the four noble truths are indeed true(samma ditthi). while an arahant has has taken the N8FP to completion.

“one accomplished in view” - this refers to the very same right view mentioned in MN117.

Both sotapanna and arahant posses this “anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā” type of right view. while only an arahant is fully in possession of rest of the path up to ‘right release’

An arahant has fully eradicated the āsavās. Sotapanna is guaranteed of eradicating the āsavās in the future(sammatta niyama).

yes, of course

I agree and believe that is what is presented in the gradual path and I try to apply the method of study that I believe the Buddha gave for his teaching: SuttaCentral

That study reveals to me, it’s doubt in the Triple Gem that is meant in the Fetters and it’s study and testing of the teaching that overcomes it. By the way, having understood and tested the teaching, one gains confidence in oneself also.

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