Surprising passage in AN 7.50

[prajnadeva]

Suppose what you said is true. Abandoning 7 tier sexuality is sufficient for enlightenment.

The 7th tier is actually the desire to be reborn in heavens. Heavens can be kama realm, rupa realm, arupa realm.

The desire for kama realm is included in sensual desire (kamacchanda)
The other 2 is ruparaga and aruparaga.
All 3 is included in ten fetters. Only arahat eliminate all ten fetters.
(Just like commenter before me explain)

In conclusion, it is still in the same framework of eliminating ten fetters. Practice the eightfold path and so on.

It is not that easy!

[mudita]

@silence

It’s the bolded part that I find surprising, I included the rest for proper context. The apparent problem here is that the Buddha seems to equate his enlightenment with simply abandoning sexuality. If it was that easy, any good christian priest would become a Buddha, which is obviously not the case.

What do you make of this?

Being a human in this sensual realm, if the good christian priest can overcome the seven sexual fetters with ease, his mind is mature and able, when he dies, if he sees nibbana and wills toward nibbana, he will be fully liberated from samsara, same as the historical buddha Gotama and all other buddhas.

“This Noble Eightfold Path is brahmacariya; The destruction of attachment (rāga), the destruction of anger (dosa), the destruction of ignorance (moha) - this is the final goal of brahmacariya.”
SN 45.6 Paṭhama aññatara bhikkhu sutta

brahmacariya is the way.

[freedom]

@silence

without implying that (A, B and C) is a sufficient condition for X to happen.

Whether this causality relationship can be deemed accurate regarding current knowledge in biology of reproduction is another matter altogether.

What interests us is to know what idea the text is conveying with this expression.

Learning necessity and sufficiency from the web…

In logic and mathematics, necessity and sufficiency are terms used to describe a conditional or implicational relationship between two statements. For example, in the conditional statement: “If P then Q”, Q is necessary for P, because the truth of Q is guaranteed by the truth of P (equivalently, it is impossible to have P without Q).[1]
Similarly, P is sufficient for Q, because P being true always implies that Q is true, but P not being true does not always imply that Q is not true.[2]
Necessity and sufficiency - Wikipedia

With P => Q

Necessity:
Rules:

1. If there is Q then we must have P.
2. If there is no Q then there is no P.

Sufficiency:
Rules:

1. If there is P, we must have Q.
2. If there is no P then Q may be true or false.

Examples:
Necessity:

P: A is even number
Q: A is divisible by 2

A is even number => A is divisible by 2

Rule1: If Q then P
If A is divisible by 2 (Q) then A is even number (P) - true

Rule2: If there is no Q then there is no P.
If A is not divisible by 2 (~Q) then A is not an even number (~P.) - true

Both rules are satisfied then this is a necessity conditional.

We can also see that Q is necessity for P or “A is divisible by 2” is necessity for A is even number.

Sufficiency: P => Q
P: A is a prime number > 2
Q: A is an odd number

A is a prime number > 2 => A is an odd number:

Rule1: If there is P, we must have Q.
If A is a prime number > 2 then A is an odd number. (true)

Rule2: if there is no P then Q may be true or false.
If A is not a prime number > 2 then we cannot say that A is not an odd number. (15 is not a prime number, but it is an odd number, 6 is not a prime number and it is not an odd number.)

Both rules are satisfied, so this is a sufficiency conditional.

Necessity and sufficiency are complicated and very confusing. Moreover, they do not apply very well for natural language conditionals, and I do not think that they can be applied here. However, I found that specific conditionality that we often find in DO is the best to use here if we understand it.

Specific conditionality: A => B
Example: Contact (A) => Feeling (B)

Rules:

1. When there is B, there is A. (When this is, that is) : When there is feeling (B) then there is contact (A).
2. When there is no A, there is no B. (When this is not, that is not): When there is no contact (A), there is no feeling (B).

Apply to the current problem of this post. A => B:

A: I saw that these seven sexual fetters—every one of them—had been given up in me.
B: I announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

No A: I saw that these seven sexual fetters—or even one of them—had not been given up in me.
No B: I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and human.

Rule 1: When there is B, there is A.
When I announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans, I saw that these seven sexual fetters—every one of them—had been given up in me. (true)

Or we can re-phrase it as:
When I saw that these seven sexual fetters—every one of them—had been given up in me, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans

Rule2: When there is no A, there is no B.
As long as I saw that these seven sexual fetters—or even one of them—had not been given up in me, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and human. (true)

Both rules are satisfied perfectly with this specific conditionality.

In this specific conditionality, A is simply a required condition for B. If there is B, the required condition A must be there with no exception (Rule#1). If there is no A then there is no B because A is required (Rule#2). However, if there is A, it does not guarantee that B must happen (No rule in this case.)

In conclusion, that passage simply says that the abandon of the seven sexual fetters is the required condition for the supreme perfect awakening. If there is supreme perfect awakening, we must already gave up those fetters.

[silence]

I think what would be most instructive at this point would be to check what the EA parallel says. It is not yet available in English translation, but I happen to stay in Malaysia where it is not difficult to find people capable of reading Chinese.

So I asked one of the Theras here and he said that the end of the sutta in Chinese does not talk about Buddha’s enlightenment, but rather about brahmacariya, morality and precepts. This would obviously need to be confirmed, but if the ‘surprising’ passage does not occur in the EA parallel we may start looking at a transmission error.

I will try to see what is the case with the other oddity, AN 8.64.

[silence]

Since I figured it is better than nothing, I have google-translated the parallels:

EA 37.9 (AN 7.50)

聞如是：

一時，佛在舍衛國祇樹給孤 獨園。

爾時，生漏梵志往至世尊所，頭面禮足， 在一面坐。爾時，梵志白世尊言：「此中頗有 比丘，云何得修梵行無有缺漏，清淨修梵 行？」

世尊告曰：「若有人戒律具足而無所犯， 此名清淨修得梵行。復次，梵志！若有眼見 色，不起想著，不起識念，除惡想，去不善 法，得全眼根，是謂此人清淨修梵行。若 耳聞聲、鼻嗅香、舌知味、身知細滑、意知法， 都無識想，不起想念，清淨得修梵行，全 其意根，如此之人得修梵行，無有缺漏。」

婆 羅門白佛言：「何等之人不修梵行，不具足 清淨行？」

世尊告曰：「若有人俱會者，此名非 梵行。」

婆羅門白佛言：「何等之人漏不具足？」

Smells like this:

At one time, the Buddha gave only a tree to the Garden of Lonely in the country of Shewei.

At that time, he went to the place of the Supreme World-Honored One, bowed his head and bowed his feet, and sat on one side. At that time, the World Honored One said, “There are quite a few bhikkhus among them. How can one practice the Brahma life without flaws, and practice the Brahma life in a pure way?”

The World-Honored One said, "If someone has the precepts without committing anything, this is called pure and pure cultivation of the Brahma life. Again, Brahma aspirations! If there is a person who sees form, does not think about it, does not know how to think, eliminates evil thoughts, and removes unwholesome dharmas, Having a complete eye, it means that this person is purifying the holy life. If the ear hears sound, the nose smells the fragrance, the tongue knows the taste, the body knows the smoothness, and the mind knows the law, all of them have no consciousness and no thoughts, and they can practice the holy life in a pure way. The root of its meaning is that such a person can practise the holy life without any flaws.”

The Brahmin said to the Buddha, “What kind of person does not practice the holy life and does not have the pure conduct?”

The World-Honored One said, “If there are people who join together, the name is not the holy life.”

The Brahmin said to the Buddha, “What kind of person is deficient in the leakages?”

世尊告曰：「若有人與女人交接，或手足相 觸，擑在心懷而不忘失。是謂，梵志！行不 具足，漏諸婬泆，與婬、怒、癡共相應。

「復次， 梵志！或與女人共相調戲，言語相加。是謂， 梵志！此人行不全具，漏婬、怒、癡，梵行不 具足修清淨行。

「復次，梵志！若有女人惡眼 相視而不移轉，於中便起婬、怒、癡想，生諸 亂念。是謂，梵志！此人梵行不淨，不修梵行。

「復次，梵志！若復有人遠聞或聞哭聲，或聞 笑聲，於中起婬、怒、癡，起諸亂想。是謂，梵 志！此人不清淨修梵行，與婬、怒、癡共相 應，行不全具。

「復次，梵志！若有人曾見女人， 後更生想，憶其頭目，於中生想；在屏閑 之處，生婬、怒、癡，與惡行相應。是謂，梵志！此 人不修梵行。」

The World-Honored One said, "If someone is in contact with a woman, or if their hands and feet touch each other, they hold it in their hearts and do not forget them. That is to say, Brahma-mindedness! If one’s actions are not sufficient, they will leak out all kinds of lewdness, which are related to lewdness, anger, and ignorance.

"Further, Brahma! Or play with women, and add words together. That is to say, Brahma! This person’s conduct is not complete, leaking lust, anger, and delusion, and the holy life is not sufficient to cultivate pure conduct.

"Further, Brahman aspiration! If a woman looks at her with evil eyes and does not turn away, lust, anger, and delusional thoughts will arise in her, and all kinds of chaotic thoughts will arise. That is to say, Brahma aspiration! This person’s Brahma life is not pure, and he does not cultivate Brahma. Row.

"Further time, Brahma Wisdom! If someone hears the sound of crying or laughter from a distance, lust, anger, ignorance, and all kinds of chaotic thoughts arise in them. This means, Brahma Wisdom! This person is not pure and practising the Brahma life. Corresponding to lust, anger, and ignorance, the actions are incomplete.

“Further, Brahma! If someone has ever seen a woman, and then thinks about it, remembers her leader, and thinks in the middle; in the idle place, lust, anger, and ignorance occur, corresponding to evil deeds. That is, Brahma! This person does not practice the holy life.”

是時，生漏梵志白世尊言：「甚 奇！甚特！此沙門瞿曇亦知梵行，亦知不梵 行；亦知漏行，亦知不漏行。所以然者，我今 亦生此念，諸有人民，女人手足相加，起諸 亂想。我時便生此念：『此人行不清淨，與婬、 怒、癡共相應。』第一更樂者，女人是也。第一可 欲者，所謂眼眼相視，然彼女人或語、或笑，繫 綴男子，或共言語而繫綴男子。是時，我便 生此念：『此六人盡行不清淨行。』如來今日所 說甚過，猶如盲者得目，迷者見路，愚者聞 道，有目之人見色，如來說法亦復如是。我 今自歸佛、法、眾，自今之後不復殺生，唯願受 為優婆塞。」

爾時，生漏梵志聞佛所說，歡喜 奉行。

At that time, the World-Honored One Bai said, "It’s amazing! It’s amazing! This ascetic Qutan also knows the holy life, and he knows not the holy life; he also knows the leakage, and he also knows not to leak. Therefore, I am also born today. With this thought, all the people, the women’s hands and feet are joined together, and all kinds of random thoughts arise. I always thought of this: “This person’s actions are not pure, and it corresponds to lust, anger, and ignorance.” The first thing that is desirable is the so-called eye-to-eye contact. However, the woman may speak or laugh, and she may be attached to a man, or she may share her speech and be attached to a man. At that time, I would have this thought: "These six people are completely impure in their actions. Do it.” What the Tathagata said today is just as the blind one gains his eyes, the lost sees the way, the fool hears the Way, and the one with eyes sees appearance, and the same is true when the Tathagata speaks the Dharma. No more killing, but only willing to accept it as an Upasaka.”

At that time, the Brahma Zhi Shengli heard what the Buddha said, and followed it with joy.

MA 73 (AN 8.64)

中阿含經卷第十八
東晉罽賓三藏瞿曇僧伽提婆譯

我聞如是：

一時，佛遊枝提瘦，在水渚林中。

爾時，世尊告諸比丘：「我本未得覺無上正真道時，而作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色也。然我未與彼天共同集會，未相慰勞，未有所論說，未有所答對。

The Eighteenth Volume of the Chinese-Arabhan Sutra
Translated by Qu Tan Sangha Deva in the Eastern Jin Dynasty

I heard this:

At one point, the Buddha wandered thin, and was in the Shuizhu Forest.

At that time, the World-Honored One told the monks: "I did not realize the true and unsurpassed way, but I thought: ‘I would rather be born with its light, and see forms and forms because of its light. Thus my wisdom and vision are extremely clear and pure.’ Because the wisdom and view are extremely clear and pure, I live far away from loneliness, without slack in mind, and practice diligently. Because I live far away from loneliness, have no slack in mind, and practice diligently, I obtain light and see shapes and forms. Gathered together with Hetian, but did not console each other, did not say anything, and did not answer correctly.

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對也。然我不知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生。

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生也。然我不知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂。

"I recited this thought: ‘I would rather be born with its light, see shapes and forms because of its light, and gather with the heaven to comfort each other, have some arguments, and have some answers. In this way, my wisdom and vision are extremely clear and pure.’ Because my knowledge and view are extremely clear and pure, I live far away from loneliness, without slack in my mind, and practice diligently. Heaven gathers together, condolences to each other, has some arguments, and some answers are correct. However, I don’t know that Tian’s surname, such a character, such a life.

"I recited this thought: 'I would rather be born with its light, see shapes because of its light, and gather together with that god, comfort each other, have some arguments, and give correct answers; Words are born like this. Thus my wisdom and vision are extremely clear and pure.” Because of the extremely clear and pure wisdom and vision, I live far away from loneliness, with no slack in my mind, and I practice diligently. , as soon as you get light, you can see shapes and colors, and gather together with that god, consoling each other, discussing, and answering correctly; I also know that that god is such a surname, such a character, such a birth. However, I do not know that such a god is such a food. , if it is suffering and happiness.

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂也。然我不知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡。

"I recited this thought: 'I would rather be born with its light, see shapes because of its light, and gather together with that god, comfort each other, have some arguments, and give correct answers; Words are born in this way; I also know that the heaven eats like this, suffers and enjoys like this. So my wisdom and view are extremely clear and pure.” Because of the extremely clear and pure wisdom and vision, I am far away from being alone, and I have no slack in my heart, and I practice diligently. Live alone, without slack in mind, and practice diligently, you will get light, you will see shapes, and you will gather together with that god, consoling each other, discussing and saying something, and answering correctly. It is born like this; I also know that the heavens eat like this, suffer and suffer like this. However, I do not know that the heavens live long, live for a long time, and die like this.

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂，亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡也。然我不知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼。

"I recited this thought: 'I would rather be born with its light, see shapes because of its light, and gather together with that god, comfort each other, have some arguments, and give correct answers; Words are born in this way; I also know that the gods eat like this, suffer and suffer like this, and know that the gods live long, live for a long time, and end their lives. Therefore, my wisdom and vision are extremely clear. Stay, do not let go of mind, practice diligently. Because I live far away from loneliness, do not let go of heart, and practice diligently, I will gain light, see shapes, and gather together with the heaven to comfort each other, and say something. I have a correct answer; I also know that the heaven is like this surname, the word is like this, and the birth is like this; I also know that the heaven is like this food, the suffering and happiness are like this; If this is the case, it will be dead and alive.

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡；亦知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡；亦知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼也。然我不知彼天、彼彼天中。

"I recited this thought: 'I would rather be born with its light, see shapes because of its light, and gather together with that god, comfort each other, have some arguments, and give correct answers; Words are born like this; I also know that the gods eat like this, suffer and enjoy it like this; I also know that the gods live long, live for a long time, and die like this; I also know that the gods have done such karma in this way, and die here and there. 'Because my knowledge and view are extremely clear and pure, I live far away from loneliness, without slack in mind, and practice diligently. The gods gather together, condolences together, have some discussions, and have the correct answers; also know that the gods are such surnames, words, and births; also know that the gods eat like this, suffer and suffer like this; also know that the gods live long and live for a long time. , Such life is exhausted; I also know that the heavens have done this and such things, and they will die and be born.

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡；亦知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼；亦知彼天、彼彼天中。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡；亦知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼；亦知彼天、彼彼天中也。然我不知彼天上，我曾生中、未曾生中。

"I recited this thought: 'I would rather be born with its light, see shapes because of its light, and gather together with that god, comfort each other, have some arguments, and give correct answers; Words, such life; also know that the gods eat like this, suffer pain and pleasure; also know that the gods live long, live for a long time, and end their lives; also know that the gods have done such and such deeds, die this way and rebirth; also know that gods, that and that In heaven. Thus my wisdom and view are extremely clear and pure.” Because of the extremely clear and pure wisdom and view, I live far away from loneliness, without slack in my mind, and practice diligently. When you get light, you will see shapes and shapes, and gather together with the heaven, consoling each other, saying something, and answering correctly; also know the name, character, and birth of the heaven; also know that the heaven eats like this, suffers and suffers like this. ; I also know that the gods live long, live for a long time, and end their lives; I also know that the gods have done such things as they have done, and they will die and be born here; I also know that the gods and the gods. never born.

「我復作是念：『我寧可得生其光明，因其光明而見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡；亦知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼；亦知彼天、彼彼天中；亦知彼天上，我曾生中、未曾生中。如是我智見極大明淨。』我為智見極明淨故，便在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤。我因在遠離獨住，心無放逸，修行精勤故，即得光明，便見形色，及與彼天共同集會，共相慰勞，有所論說，有所答對；亦知彼天如是姓、如是字、如是生；亦知彼天如是食、如是受苦樂；亦知彼天如是長壽、如是久住、如是命盡；亦知彼天作如是如是業已，死此生彼；亦知彼天、彼彼天中；亦知彼天上，我曾生中、未曾生中也。

"I recited this thought: 'I would rather be born with its light, see shapes because of its light, and gather together with that god, comfort each other, have some arguments, and give correct answers; Words, such life; also know that the gods eat like this, suffer pain and pleasure; also know that the gods live long, live for a long time, and end their lives; also know that the gods have done such and such deeds, die this way and rebirth; also know that gods, that and that In the sky; I also know that in the sky, I have been born, and I have never been born. Therefore, my wisdom and view are extremely clear and pure.” Because of the extreme clarity and purity of wisdom and vision, I live far away from alone, without slack in my heart, and practice diligently. Away from living alone, with no slack in mind, and diligent practice in practice, you will get light, you will see shapes, and you will gather together with that god, consoling each other, discussing and saying something, and answering correctly. , So born; also know that the gods eat like this, suffer and enjoy it like this; also know that the gods live long, live for a long time, and end their lives; also know that the gods do things like this, die this life, and know the gods, the gods. In the middle; I also know that in the sky, I have been born in the middle, and I have not been born in the middle.

「若我不正知得此八行者，便不可一向說得，亦不知我得覺無上正真之道；我亦於此世間，諸天、魔、梵、沙門、梵志不能出過其上；我亦不得解脫種種解脫；我亦未離諸顛倒，未生已盡、梵行已立、所作已辦、不更受有，知如真。若我正知得此八行者，便可一向說得，亦知我得覺無上正真之道；我亦於此世間，諸天、魔、梵、沙門、梵志出過其上；我亦得解脫種種解脫，我心已離諸顛倒，生已盡，梵行已立，所作已辦，不更受有，知如真。」

佛說如是。彼諸比丘聞佛所說，歡喜奉行。

天經第二竟（千七百七十四字）

"If I don’t know the eight elements, I can’t say it all the time, and I don’t know that I can feel the unsurpassed and true way; I am also in this world, and the gods, demons, Brahman, ascetic, and Brahma will not be able to go beyond them. ; I am not free from all kinds of liberation; I am not free from inversions, I have not yet been born, I have established the holy life, I have done what I have done, and I will not experience more. That’s right, I also know that I can feel the unsurpassed and true way; I am also in this world, the gods, demons, Brahman, ascetic, Brahma have come out of it; I have also been liberated from all kinds of liberation, and my mind has been freed from all upside downs. , the life has been exhausted, the holy life has been established, what has been done has been done, and there is nothing more to be experienced, knowing as it is.”

Buddha said so. When those bhikkhus heard what the Buddha said, they happily followed it.

The Second Book of Heaven (1,774 words)

[silence]

The takeaway from AN 7.50’s parallel is that even the very imperfect google translation shows that the passage where the Buddha says that eliminating the 7 fetters of sexuality allowed him to become enlightened is not present.

Since in my opinion we have to resort to mental gymnastics to try and explain that passage, and since it is not present in the parallel, a transmission error starts emerging as a possible explanation. Given how both similar and different the parallel is, it shows us the range of variation that took place around this sutta in ancient times, and I think that holding onto the Pali version as being verbatim the words of the Buddha may not be realistic.

Now AN 8.64’s parallel looks like it has the enlightenment pericope et the end (although that would need to be confirmed). What the explanation should be in this case, I don’t know.

But if we want to continue assuming that the use of the “yāvakīvañca… yato ca kho…” expression denotes only a necessary condition in AN 7.50, we still have to grapple with the fact that in some suttas, clearly the “yāvakīvañca…” part denotes a necessary condition while the “yato ca kho…” part denotes a sufficient condition (see my earlier post), which would mean that the Buddha was fuzzy on the distinction between necessary and sufficient condition. I don’t think that was the case, and I personally feel more inclined to seek another explanation, such as a transmission error. Your mileage may vary, and that’s fine.

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

In his new book on “Early Buddhist Soteriology” G. A. Somaratne makes the claim that there are two parallel types of awakening: one by wisdom (which he calls “epistemic freedom”) and the other of mind (which he calls “psychosomatic freedom”). According to this framework, this sutta would be a (relatively rare) example of the explicitly “psychosomatic” type without reference to the (more typical) “epistemic” mode.

This, of course, requires claiming that the usual alignment of the 10 fetters to the four stages of awakening is a later simplification, and he proposes a new version of the fetters and stages to compensate.

If you’re willing to swallow that, then this hypothesis may be another explanation for what’s going on in this sutta.

[Puerh]

[quote="silence, post:1,

@silence

As long as I saw that these seven sexual fetters—or even one of them—had not been given up in me, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans. But when I saw that these seven sexual fetters—every one of them—had been given up in me, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans. Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there are no more future lives.’”

sex is the energy of nature for the perpetuation of life (and therefore -self). While there is attachment to sex, there is also rebirth.

Those words sounds logical to me for arhants.

[ quote]
The apparent problem here is that the Buddha seems to equate his enlightenment with simply abandoning sexuality. If it was that easy, any good christian priest would become a Buddha, which is obviously not the case.
[/quote]
this is an inverse reasoning. Sex abstinence doesn’t mean there is sex detachment. It is sex detachment what really makes sex abstinence.

This blind energy is more complicated of what it seems and one should point to what lies behind. In example, there is the case of the homosexuality although the founamental principle is exactly the same. In this issue the appearences are like a dress to manifest that blind force, present in all the living beings, and which is projected on reality in diferent ways. We are quite muppets regarding that energy ,and sex is the first door to manifest it although not the only one.

Everybody knows the case of many domestic animals who are deprived of their reproductive organs. However, they continue to manifest that same energy trying to copulate with cushions or whatever object. They are pure sincerity in this aspect and don’t deceive about the real source of what happens.
Very different than humans. In the case of humans this is more complicated because that energy is intermediated by the reason and other conditionants. From that same space of deception, Freud developed his theory after reading some observations on this issue made by previous thinkers.

Attachment to sex means atachment to the perpetuation of life, and therefore rebirth. It is logical the arhants observe its absence like another test of the eradication of defilements and the end of rebirth.

[tuckervaldes]

Becoming an arahant requires destruction of the asavas: the influence of sensuality, the influence of becoming (wanting rebirth), and the influence of ignorance (or tendency to ignore anicca, dukkha, anatta and the lack of knowledge of total freedom). So if one completely cuts off sensual desire, desire for rebirth, and the conditions that lead to birth, aging, and death…then that’s enough! It’s very subtle and difficult but not exactly complicated; it’s just that our vulnerabilities to these influences are so ingrained that it takes sustained dedicated effort in understanding and realizing the path.

[Ric]

Hi @tuckervaldes,

Welcome to the D&D forum!

Enjoy the multiple resources here available: may these be of assistance along the path.

Should you have any questions, feel free to contact the @moderators.

With Metta,
Ric
On behalf of the moderators

[Adutiya]

@faujidoc1

This is similar to many other suttas which are similarly worded

That was the first thing that came to mind for me.

@Puerh

The apparent problem here is that the Buddha seems to equate his enlightenment with simply abandoning sexuality. If it was that easy, any good christian priest would become a Buddha, which is obviously not the case.

That was the second thing that came to mind for me.

[cdpatton]

@silence

The takeaway from AN 7.50’s parallel is that even the very imperfect google translation shows that the passage where the Buddha says that eliminating the 7 fetters of sexuality allowed him to become enlightened is not present.

The parallel in EA is somewhat different. It includes the passage in which the brahmin asks what it means that a person doesn’t cultivate the religious practice (i.e., celibacy), and the Buddha gives examples relating to women instigating the three poisons (not just sexual desire). That’s really the extent of the parallel between EA 37.9 and AN 7.50.

EA 37.9 occurs in the Sixes, not the Sevens, because it begins with the Buddha saying that someone who purely cultivates the brahmacariya isn’t attached to the six sense objects. And the examples about women number six as well, appearing to run parallel to the six sense objects, in fact. The conclusion does seem more appropriate to the rest of the sutra than AN 7.50.

But this is par for the course when comparing parallels with EA. It has many examples of this when compared to Pali suttas. The mystery about EA is still which branch of Buddhism it represents. Scholars have speculated, but there isn’t much to go on besides it being quite different from Theravada and Sarvastivada sutras when we look at parallels.

@silence

Now AN 8.64’s parallel looks like it has the enlightenment pericope et the end (although that would need to be confirmed). What the explanation should be in this case, I don’t know.

MA 73 is very close to the Pali parallel. I translated it at Dharma Pearls a couple years ago, though it’s a bit rough at this point (but better than Google Translate). It’s also in the second volume of BDK’s ongoing translation by Analayo et al. MA is from a Sarvastivada canon, which tends to be closer to Theravada in content, if not in arrangement and wording, than EA is.

[suaimhneas]

My understanding would be that in the Buddhist cosmological framework, that it is only an arahant that has irrevocably cut off those 7 fetters at the root (never to arise again).

To have a human with no trace left of sensuality or sexual desire is something extraordinary (given how ingrained the sexual drive is in our evolution or desires for food etc.). IMO that can really only be possible with some extraordinary tool like jhana. However, jhana in the suttas does not necessarily imply enlightenment. There can be mendicants who effectively have no sensual desire in this life (and get reborn in a fine material plane etc.) and yet haven’t ended rebirth. That means sensual desire has not been permanently eradicated and will arise again down the line.

In the Buddhist framework, if sensuality has been permanently ended, one must be either a non-returner or arahant at that point. However, a non-returner still has lust for material or non-material existence. A non-returner will still in a sense at least partially be subject to the seventh fetter described above (and a non-enlightened mendicant reborn into the Brahma realms etc. certainly will).

As far as I can see, the only beings who have permanently eradicated all of these 7 fetters in the Buddhist cosmological framework are arahants or buddhas. So, possibly these conditions are both necessary and sufficient for that.

[silence]

Thank you for these valuable insights.

I find myself a bit too ignorant on Chinese Agamas. Do you know a good resource that provides an introduction to the various Agamas, what we know and don’t know about their origins etc.?

@suaimhneas

My understanding would be that in the Buddhist cosmological framework, that it is only an arahant that has irrevocably cut off those 7 fetters at the root (never to arise again).

That’s interesting. That would mean that pajahati should by default be understood as abandoning irrevocably. This should be fairly easy to assess. I’ll go look and come back

[edit:] it doesn’t seem to be the case that pajahati should be understood always and by default as “abandoning irrevocably”. For example in MN 51 the expression is used for abandonment of the hindrances before getting into jhana. That is not irrevocable abandonment.

Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire.
So abhijjhaṁ loke pahāya vigatābhijjhena cetasā viharati, abhijjhāya cittaṁ parisodheti,
…
They give up these five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom.
So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe,
Then, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati;

One might think that the definition of pahānasaññā in AN 10.60 would clarify the issue but it’s not so easy. It seems that pajahati falls somewhere between ‘not tolerating’ and ‘irrevocably eleminating’, arguably 3 times closer to the former than to the latter.

And what is the perception of giving up?
Katamā cānanda, pahānasaññā?
It’s when a mendicant doesn’t tolerate a sensual, malicious, or cruel thought that has arisen, and they don’t tolerate any bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen, but give them up, get rid of them, eliminate them, and obliterate them.
Idhānanda, bhikkhu uppannaṁ kāmavitakkaṁ nādhivāseti, pajahati, vinodeti, byantīkaroti, anabhāvaṁ gameti. Uppannaṁ byāpādavitakkaṁ nādhivāseti, pajahati, vinodeti, byantīkaroti, anabhāvaṁ gameti. Uppannaṁ vihiṁsāvitakkaṁ nādhivāseti, pajahati, vinodeti, byantīkaroti, anabhāvaṁ gameti. Uppannuppanne pāpake akusale dhamme nādhivāseti, pajahati, vinodeti, byantīkaroti, anabhāvaṁ gameti.

[suaimhneas]

I’ll defer to other’s knowledge on Pali and Chinese etc. (not something I have ).

IMO there are two ways this passage can make sense. One can assume that the overcoming of these fetters is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Or one can assume a permanent or irrevocable ending of them is implied.

Otherwise, what is one left with? That temporary suppression of these 7 fetters necessarily implies Buddhahood? That doesn’t make much sense in the context of the rest of the the canon. So, I guess a third possibility is that something has gotten lost or changed in this sutta somewhere along the way.

The fourth possibility that this is the actual meaning and the sutta faithfully records original events seems too unlikely to me to worry about.

[cdpatton]

@silence

I find myself a bit too ignorant on Chinese Agamas. Do you know a good resource that provides an introduction to the various Agamas, what we know and don’t know about their origins etc.?

Offhand, I’m not sure where the best introduction could be found in a single essay or article. Surely such a thing exists somewhere, but I’m not finding it searching in the usual places. Sounds like something that should be written up. In the meantime, though, I would suggest the publications that can be found at the Agama Research Group. And Ven. Analayo has been prolific writing comparative studies from the Pali studies standpoint.

[stephen]

@Preston

It represents one of the most awful and horrendous forms of the rise and fall of the world

How would it compare to something like nuclear war or genocide?

[Preston]

@stephen

How would it compare to something like nuclear war or genocide?

Thanks Stephen for bringing me back to Earth .
Of course, nuclear war and genocide are utter atrocities and dramatically worse.
May you be well!

[NgXinZhao]

@silence

simply abandoning sexuality.

That’s non-returner level. Oh, and it’s eradicated, not just abandoned.

So the others are right in it’s necessary, but not sufficient.

[silence]

Bhante may I refer you to this post where I discuss the meaning of pajahati? This conversation has taken place earlier in the thread