Im sorry I was lazy and didnt check if this was discussed elsewhere but I did assume since it seemed so nuanced that it wouldn’t be…
My concern is about MN 140, in particular, the part that talks about conditions such as contact is the condition for feelings and with the removal of contact the feeling ceases.
In what sense does the Buddha mean this? I think clear examples that he would have most likely thought of and not meant is something like the following.
Say that I step on a tack. When i remove the tack the pain will probably still be there and linger for sometime. Another example seems to be in the mind. A thought of my ex, say, might trigger a flow of thoughts that persist long after the initial thought is gone.
So my question is simply what does the Buddha mean here?
Hi,
Contact is a conditional physical-mental event, defined as the outcome of the meeting of sense-object, sense-organ, and sense consciousness → contact → feelings. As in MN148.
Also, SN25.4: ““Mendicants, eye contact is impermanent, decaying, and perishing. Ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, and mind contact are impermanent, decaying, and perishing.”
It’s all causes and conditions as various experiences.
Contact is the immediacy of experience via the six senses, as above. It’s not limited to physical events like a tack in the foot.
If there were no senses or consciousness, for example, could anything be “contacted” or felt?
So,. as in SN26.4:
"“Mendicants, the arising of eye contact … mind contact … is the manifestation of old age and death. The cessation of eye contact … mind contact … is the ending of old age and death.” That is, the ending of dukkha.
MN140 is also helpful, along with many other suttas that teach about this.
Hi
From what i’ve read about dependent origination and also as per my own interpretation, Contact refers to the element of contact that arises due to an internal physical sense base coming into contact with an external sense object. For e.g. when sound contacts with the ear sense base (this is a fine matter located in ear drum) the element of contact arises. The element of contact has the function of extracting the essence of the sound object. Just as when a fruit is pressed between a mortar and pestle its essence or juice is extracted, the element of contact is responsible for extracting the essence of the sound that contacts the ear sense base. Based on this contact a pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral feeling arises.
Notice that in this whole process there is no being, man, woman, person who is responsible for listening, seeing, tasting etc. The experiences happen because of conditions.
This feeling arises simultaneously with the contact taking place, as soon as the contact ceases the feeling also ceases. Just as when sound is produced only when a drum is being beaten and then simultaneously stops when the beating or contact stops.
When a meditator understands this cause and effect occuring in their own body their concept of I or a permanent abiding self falls away, they stop clinging to mind and body and as a result are freed from personality view and hence also from suffering.
Other Contacts arises after following pairs:
Eye sense base - visual image
Nose sense base - smell
Tongue base - taste/ flavours
Body base - touch
Heart base - thoughts/ideas
Hi,
I think you need to know this, for starters.
Consciousness is a condition for name and form. viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ;
Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ;
The six sense fields are conditions for contact. saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso;
Contact is a condition for feeling. phassapaccayā vedanā; SN 12.2
And this may be helpful
What is a condition for name and form?’ kiṁpaccayā nāmarūpan’ti?
Then, through rational application of mind, I comprehended with wisdom: Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo: ‘When consciousness exists there are name and form. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.’ ‘viññāṇe kho sati nāmarūpaṁ hoti, viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpan’ti.
Then it occurred to me: Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi: ‘When what exists is there consciousness? What is a condition for consciousness?’ ‘kimhi nu kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, kiṁpaccayā viññāṇan’ti?
Then, through rational application of mind, I comprehended with wisdom: Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo: ‘When name and form exist there’s consciousness. Name and form are a condition for consciousness.’ ‘nāmarūpe kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇan’ti.
Then it occurred to me: Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi— This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that. paccudāvattati kho idaṁ viññāṇaṁ nāmarūpamhā na paraṁ gacchati.
This is the extent to which one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is: name and form are conditions for consciousness. Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṁ nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ;
Consciousness is a condition for name and form. viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ;
Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ;
The six sense fields are conditions for contact. … saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso …pe…
That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.
‘Origination, origination.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘Samudayo, samudayo’ti kho me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṁ udapādi ñāṇaṁ udapādi paññā udapādi vijjā udapādi āloko udapādi. SN 12.65
And perhaps this
But I also understood you to say: Idāneva ca pana mayaṁ āyasmato sāriputtassa bhāsitaṁ evaṁ ājānāma: ‘No, Reverend Koṭṭhita, consciousness is not made by oneself, nor by another, nor by both oneself and another, nor does it arise by chance, not made by oneself or another. ‘na khvāvuso koṭṭhika, sayaṅkataṁ viññāṇaṁ, na paraṅkataṁ viññāṇaṁ, na sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca viññāṇaṁ, nāpi asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ viññāṇaṁ. Rather, name and form are conditions for consciousness.’ Api ca nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇan’ti.
How then should we see the meaning of this statement?” Yathā kathaṁ panāvuso sāriputta, imassa bhāsitassa attho daṭṭhabbo”ti?
“Well then, reverend, I shall give you a simile. “Tenahāvuso, upamaṁ te karissāmi. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said. Upamāyapidhekacce viññū purisā bhāsitassa atthaṁ jānanti.
Suppose there were two bundles of reeds leaning up against each other. Seyyathāpi, āvuso, dve naḷakalāpiyo aññamaññaṁ nissāya tiṭṭheyyuṁ.
In the same way, name and form are conditions for consciousness. Evameva kho, āvuso, nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ; Consciousness is a condition for name and form. viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ;
Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ;
The six sense fields are conditions for contact. … saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso …pe…
That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.
If the first of those bundles of reeds were to be pulled away, the other would collapse. Tāsañce, āvuso, naḷakalāpīnaṁ ekaṁ ākaḍḍheyya, ekā papateyya; And if the other were to be pulled away, the first would collapse. aparañce ākaḍḍheyya, aparā papateyya.
In the same way, when name and form cease, consciousness ceases. Evameva kho, āvuso, nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodho; When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpanirodho;
When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. nāmarūpanirodhā saḷāyatananirodho;
When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. … saḷāyatananirodhā phassanirodho …pe…
That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.” evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti. SN 12.67