I’m searching for sutta (or other ancient) passages that describe the arising and purification of defilements. It’s reasonably common to hear teachers say that as calm and mindfulness develops, defilements “come to the surface” and this is an important part of the process of purification. Are there any texts that refer to this? I can find texts such as AN9.3, where practitioners are assailed by defilements. However in such cases the practitioner was unprepared, and the Buddha advises better preparation, not that the arising of the defilements was a positive opportunity.
Please note that this is a question about texts, not about practice. I’m not asking for a discussion about the pros and cons of particular teachers or practices.
Thanks, other suttas worth looking at include MN2:
“Bhikkhus, there are taints that should be abandoned by seeing. There are taints that should be abandoned by restraining. There are taints that should be abandoned by using. There are taints that should be abandoned by enduring. There are taints that should be abandoned by avoiding. There are taints that should be abandoned by removing. There are taints that should be abandoned by developing.
However, I’ve not come across the explicit mention of the idea of defilements “coming to the surface through practice”.
Thats a very perceptive question. Its like an invitation for reflection and insight.
I haven’t seen any suttas about that.
The Ajahns Ive learnt from haven’t talked in those terms either. They were very direct about watching what triggered a defilement to be produced in the moment and deal with it directly. Very clean. In that process there was no philosophizing about some deep store of defilement’s and purification. So a very different orientation.
MN 10 explains step 9 in MN 118 is knowing if there are any defilements in the mind. In MN 118, the breathing & body are calmed (step 4), then the pleasant feelings are calmed (step 8), then any underlying defilements come to the surface (step 9), then the mind cleanses itself of these defilements (steps 10 to 12). Or in MN 19, the Buddha-To-Be is practising when defilements come to the surface. I recommend to study MN 10, MN 118 and MN 19.
As I said in the OP, I’m not interested in discussing the pros and cons of various teachers. I’ve certainly heard a number of my (in person) monastic teachers (who have been mostly Asian) speak in this way.
I would note that it is clear from the texts that defilements and habitual tendencies that arise:
MN19 “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me.
have causes and conditions that go back much further than the “present moment”.
MN19 “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind…
SN12.38 “Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness. …
So perhaps it’s not necessary for the texts to spell it out.
In the second half of MN128 we see the Buddha recounting his experience of meditation prior to enlightenment when many different defilements appear. But as I read it, it isn’t the practice that cause them to appear.
Is this what you are talking about? It might help if you could quote some written statements from the teachers you are talking about.
Do they mean how one is able to see the defilements better as calm and mindfulness develops?
Like, someone might not know they are restless until they tune into their body, so in a way that mindfulness made the restlessness “come to the surface”.
That makes good sense. It made me wonder if I misunderstood the first post:
I assumed, maybe wrongly, this was alluding to teachings heard on retreats that we have a hidden store of defilement’s hidden deep within our mind/heart/citta. Before meditation the defilement’s are hidden away down there under the usual busyness/alcohol/pleasures, or if they do manifest the deep store is unseen in the superficial mess.
the subtlest level of kilesas is called latent defilements, or latent afflictive
tendencies. These are not present in the moment but have the potential to
arise if they are given the appropriate circumstances
Once we start meditating the process of vipassana is said to be like a dredge that brings up all the sludge ie the stored defilement’s. As this point the meditator gets more distressed with all the "stuff"coming up. Often they wish they never started doing vipassana and could put the defilement’s back in the box and enjoy their old “usual” life again. To be clear Im not saying any of that is true. Or that’s what Mike meant. But it is a convincing model that explains common experiences on the path accurately. Its just not obviously in the suttas?
Hopefully @ mikenz66 will kindly let us know what he meant.
I still think it makes sense as just a way of speaking about seeing “how deep the defilements go” with greater mindfulness, if one doesn’t have to commit to the theory of a “deep store.” (the mind is probably more dynamic and not that fixed IMO)
This sounds more like people stumbling on their own unprocessed traumas during meditation. I’m not sure why or how this happens but I’m convinced it’s a real thing that many people experience.
IMO, this is more like meditation causing the ripening of past kamma made by avoiding certain emotions earlier during one’s life. Avoiding certain emotions doesn’t have to be deliberate, but it might be learned implicitly during childhood to no fault of one’s own.
I still think dealing with past trauma broadly fits under right effort though – both in the sense of unlearning unhelpful mental habits but also being able to skillfully endure unpleasant emotions (e.g. through patience and kindness)
Thanks @Erika_ODonnell. As you say, one doesn’t need to posit a “deep store”. The present is influenced by kamma:
SN35.146 “And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear is old kamma … The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma. …
As per your message, this was the sutta that first came to my mind, where the Buddha not only advises on different types of taints to be abandoned he also advises in how to get rid of them with different more radical methods.
But, per your question, are we not talking about like glimpses of insight and wisdom that can come to us with a distilled and calmer mind? To get there, some of them were by definition abandoned or cooled already (or else your mind would not be calm and serene if they were burning in you), but maybe something like recognizing tendencies of attachment, greed, illusion etc. the more your mind is still, cooled and concentrated the more sensible you are to discover and abandon such taints.
