Sutta vs Visuddhimagga by Bhante Vimalaramsi

The Buddha mentions impermanence. Whether something that is impermanent of lasts only an ‘instant’ is relative. 100 year lifespan of a person is an instant when compared to the lifespan of the universe. He mentions that matter lasts longer and that the mind is changing all the time, relatively:

But when it comes to that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’, an uneducated ordinary person is unable to become disillusioned, dispassionate, or freed. 2.2Why is that? 2.3Because for a long time they’ve been attached to it, thought of it as their own, and mistaken it: 2.4‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ 2.5That’s why, when it comes to this mind, an uneducated ordinary person is unable to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed.

But an uneducated ordinary person would be better off taking this body made up of the four primary elements to be their self, rather than the mind. 3.2Why is that? 3.3This body made up of the four primary elements is seen to last for a year, or for two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or a hundred years, or even longer.

But that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night. 4.2It’s like a monkey moving through the forest. It grabs hold of one branch, lets it go, and grabs another; then it lets that go and grabs yet another. 4.3In the same way, that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night.SuttaCentral

This sutta describes an interesting investigation or analysis (yonisomanasikara) into body and mind, which then leads into a contemplation on causality/DO- which interesting mirrors the insight into delineation of mind and matter (nama-rupa paricceda nana) which leads to insight into causality (paccaya parigghaha nana), of the Purification of views (ditti visuddhi) stage of the Visuddhimagga.

Further ‘evidence’:

Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said ‘the world’?”

“It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world. And what is disintegrating? The eye, bhikkhu, is disintegrating, forms are disintegrating, eye-consciousness is disintegrating, eye-contact is disintegrating, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … that too is disintegrating. The ear is disintegrating … The mind is disintegrating … Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … that too is disintegrating. It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world.”SuttaCentral

Can impermanence be separated from that which is instant? The later commentaries give it time lengths (millions of thought moments in a second) which isn’t found in the suttas, as frankly there is no measure of time when in meditation. However impermanence is at the core of the dhamma.

A certain monk visited another monk and said: “Tell me, friend, how does a monk’s vision become fully purified?”

“Friend, when a monk fully comprehends as they really are the arising and passing away of the six spheres of contact,[2] to that extent his vision becomes fully purified.”

But that monk was dissatisfied with the other’s answer, so he went to another monk…

“Friend, when a monk fully comprehends as they really are the arising and passing away of the five groups of clinging,[3] to that extent his vision becomes fully purified.”

But that monk was dissatisfied with the other’s answer, and he went to another monk…

“Friend, when a monk fully comprehends as they really are the arising and passing away of the four great elements,[4] to that extent his vision becomes fully purified.”

But that monk was dissatisfied with the other’s answer, so he went to another monk…

“Friend, when a monk fully comprehends as it really is that whatever is of a nature to arise is bound to pass away,[5] to that extent his vision becomes fully purified.” SN35.204

Impermanence is at the heart of the definitions of dukkha, asankhata and nibbana:

1.1“Mendicants, conditioned phenomena have these three characteristics. 1.2What three? 1.3Arising is evident, vanishing is evident, and change while persisting is evident. 1.4These are the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena.”

1.6Characteristics of the Unconditioned
2.1“Unconditioned phenomena have these three characteristics. 2.2What three? 2.3No arising is evident, no vanishing is evident, and no change while persisting is evident. 2.4These are the three characteristics of unconditioned phenomena.”

I would say that the 17 thought moments while following the EBT process functionally, cannot be verified experientially, while the EBT process can be verified. Also if millions of thought moments happen every second there would be hundreds of thousands of stimuli from the sense bases being processed every second. This would make it too fast for a person to consciously register anything but a blur. Therefore it doesn’t make logical sense. More helpful would be to think of these things as metaphoric expression, if not scholarly elaborations, IMO.

with metta

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Sorry, bhante, I don’t understand the question. In this post: Sutta vs Visuddhimagga by Bhante Vimalaramsi - #15 by mikenz66 I gave the passage about not living north or south of the village, which is what I was referring to in my earlier post: Sutta vs Visuddhimagga by Bhante Vimalaramsi - #5 by mikenz66

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The eye and visual image gives rise to eye consciousness, etc. Each of these named experiential elements are distinct from each other- ie they do not flow into each other like one light fading and another brightening. It is this distinctness that allows them to be separately named. Their function is understandable, when samadhi is utilised in experiencing the experiencing, in EBT based vipassana. If this process is slowed down further it might be possible to distinguish vibrations in each one, much like the dots inside a pixel on a TV screen, but no further functional units are observed, and there is no derivable meaning in these vibrations, unlike those named in abhidhamma thought moments. It takes much greater samadhi to see these vibration with no added benefit, unless it can be viewed as ‘insubstantiality’. It’s the vipassana equivalent of the Samatha animitta samadhi which is very deep but not very useful the Path, but which can be mistaken for Nibbana.

with metta

Sorry Yosoj! It was AN not DN!..Here is the refernce- its a short sutta Anguttara 4.60 Gihisāmīci…

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Is Vimalaramsi a real monk? He apparently started his own “tradition” called the “American forest tradition”. I have watched several of his videso and with all due respect something doesn’t seem right. He has made some pretty big claims and also tocuhes on the same subjects over and over again.

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He ordained in 1986 in northern Thailand.

So he is of the Thai forest tradition? Is the “American forest tradition” an extention of that?

No he is not of the Thai forest tradition.

No… he started his own tradition… he also says he is not a theravada monk, he says he started a new sect called suttanta or something…

I agree…
But to each their own i guess

Maha metta

Isn’t it against the monastic code to start your own sect? Isn’t that dividing the order? He’s not Theravada but he acts like one and uses the Pali Canon and Bhikkhu Bodhis translations? The more I read about this guy he just comes across as a fraud.

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Actually looking at his website, he claims to be suttavada… i guess thats a legit sect… at least thats what his website says

You are not alone… There are many others that view his teachings as highly questionable…
But like i said, to each their own!

Maha metta

Suttavada? That is something he made up.

One doesn’t have to like him or his teaching, but still draw nice pieces of Buddha dhamma from Venerable … :anjal:

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He is a complete fraud and a charlatan. Buddhists online need to be wary when looking for teachers. He claims to have “rediscovered” teaching by the suttas. He also claims that multiple get enlightened at each of his retreats. Retreats that’s he charges a lot of money for.

It’s interesting to see how different religions handle nonconformists.

In Roman Catholicism, for instance, with its top-down power hierarchy and it’s ecclesiastic monopoly, something like this would get shut down pretty quickly. Roman Catholic priests generally all believe the same doctrines and have more or less the same practises throughout their religious communities.

Who “reigns in” , so-to-speak, “out there” monks?

Why thems is some strong words! What has your experience been with him?

Giving a quote and offering proof otherwise would be helpful.

He charges less than most as far as I can tell. $43/night at his center for room and board in a private cabin. Higher for outside retreats through a rented facility - but not beyond what anyone else charges for such facilities.

I have met the guy a few times and know several people that have followed his practices and done retreats with him with very good results: Like sense of body disappearing and breath ceasing - able to sit comfortably for hours on end. I gave his practice a try and found that basically he uses the metta feeling in a similar way to how Thanissaro Bhikkhu uses the breath energy. It is actually a pretty nice technique.

He is a bit quirky and eccentric in my view but if we got rid of quirky eccentric monks they (monks) would be in short supply.

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