Suttas that indicate dependent origination as a momentary process

So I just finished Ven. @Sunyo’s Seeds, Paintings, and a Beam of Light: Similes of Dependent Arising.

It made me interested in how the momentary dependent arising interpretation is justified in terms of the suttas. So I tried to check out some of the references in Ven. Sunyo’s book. One of them is Ajahn Amaro’s Catastrophe-Apostrophe:

On page 23 (26) in Ajahn Amaro’s Catastrophe-Apostrophe
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I found a pdf of the Ven. P.A. Payutto’s book online. On page 66, he has:

That seems to be MN 140? Or is it more suttas? I’m not able to understand reference [28]:

Can someone help me out with translating this into suttacentral references?


My second question: when it comes to the quote from MN 140 (B. Sujato trans.):

The sage at peace is not reborn, does not grow old, and does not die. They are not shaken, and do not yearn.

Like, we do know that the Buddha did in fact grow old and die? So it seems more natural to interpret the text as a more poetic version of “The sage at peace is not reborn, [and therefore will not] grow old… [in the future, because they’ve ended rebirth]”

I am not really able to make sense of the 2/3 and 1/3 claim in Ajahn Amaro’s book.

Does anyone know, are there any suttas about dependent origination or cessation which are quite difficult to makes sense of if they are interpreted as being about life-to-life rebirth? And preferably are also conversely easy to make sense of in the light of momentariness?

I mean here suttas which are actually about dependent origination. Or suttas that provide something much clearer than MN140 for why DO should be thought of in a momentary way.

Thænks! :smiley:

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Hi Erika,

So, the M is for the Majjhima Nikāya, the roman numeral is the volume number, and the Arabic number (or Indian number!) is the page number in the Pali of the PTS version. In practice this means the following:

M III 246 = the end of MN 140, starting with: Tasseva kho pana pubbe aviddasuno abhijjhā hoti chando sārāgo.

M III 225 = MN 138, starting with: So ceva panetassa kālo ahosi yaṃ bhagavantaṃyeva etamatthaṃ paṭipuccheyyāma.

SN III 228 = SN 25.10 and/or SN 26.1.

S IV 14 = SN 35.20 and/or SN 35.21 and/or SN 35.22.

Thag 247 is presumably a reference to the verse number.

I look forward to seeing your analysis!

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It’s the second verse in Thag3.10.

You can find the PTS references with the PTS converter.

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You can also find the ones with volume numbers directly on SC using the search:

volpage:m iii 246

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Thanks, Ajahn! :smiley:

Oh great, I haven’t seen this before! Maybe a misprint or other mistake in the book’s reference to Thag3.10? The verse doesn’t seem super relevant to DO?

I also did not know this was possible! :nerd_face:

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Yep. And It’s a built in right click option if you use the browser extension.

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After looking at the references, and especially seeing SN 35 there (saḷāyatana saṃyutta), I think I now can make sense of the 2/3 and 1/3 claims. I’m going to use DO as a shorthand for dependent origination, and 3L for the three lives interpretation :slight_smile:

A lot of these suttas naturally deal with our present living bodies with consciousness {viññāṇa, nāmarūpa, saḷāyatana} and the experience this enables {phassa, vedanā} and the consequences of being alive and experiencing stuff without right view {taṇha, upādāna}.

And also, it really is through – and in relation to – our present living body with consciousness that we are overcoming avijja.

So I can see how someone, assuming that DO is “compressible”, could come to the conclusion that a lot of the suttas are about momentary DO (e.g. almost all the suttas about the sense bases would be, basically?)

On the other hand, none the above is incongruent with the three lives interpretation (3L) of DO. 3L just places the same teachings about the present-life-body into the context of rebirth.

So it seems to me 3L doesn’t lessen the suttas’ explanatory power or relevance to the present life. And it avoids obvious conundrums like the Buddha saying sages don’t age and die, and then himself proceeding to age and die.

For me personally, 3L wins out at this point. I value coherence, I don’t like contradictions :woman_shrugging:

But I’m still unsure how/if the practical consequences would differ for practitioners who choose one of the views. Beyond the words used to describe their practice and how they talk about the suttas, is the person striving to end a momentary rebirth doing something fundamentally different than the person striving to end rebirth into a new literal life?

Perhaps the two people are just using different words but practically they are doing the same thing? (let’s say they both believe in literal rebirth)

The momentary perspective does maybe shift the focus away from the sort of big-picture eons of saṃsara ideas in the suttas?

I’d be interested to hear what people think are the practical consequences! :slight_smile:

Edit: One thing that springs to mind is a rebirth in realms lower than the human is a lot worse than being reborn in the same realm for more moments? So greater incentive to practice maybe?

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That’s not the correct understanding, is it?

AN4.36:
…… “No, brahman, I am not a human being.”

…“Just like a red, blue, or white lotus - born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water - stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way l - born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world - live unsmeared by the world.
Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.”

The correct one is as it is under MN140:

By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing.

How else would the teachings be transcendent?

…… many.

dhp154:
O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

AN3.47:
“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the
unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”

ud8.1:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress.

ud8.3:
There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned.
But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

ud8.4:
One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no yearning. There being no yearning, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

The 4NT.

AN10.94:
…In that case, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it is through the use of analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said.

"Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn’t know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn’t see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn’t know that ‘So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,’ he would know this:

‘Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.’

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In the terms of the Suttas ignorance has no beginning. However you count, samsara is longer than one, or even two moments. Ignorance is impermanent, but stable, one cannot be in one moment puthujana, next ariya and again puthujana. Once ignorance is seen, there is no coming back to the state of puthujana.

Talking about dependent arising as momentary process is even more absurd and unorthodox than explaining it in the terms of three, two, one existences.

There is no single Sutta which discusses the Second Noble Truth in such ways.

Why do people insist on one or 3L interpretation? Is this about rebirth as right view? What is exactly the reason or cause?

Hi Erika, :slight_smile:

Thanks for your feedback in the other thread. :+1: I’m minimizing my time on this discussion board at the moment, so won’t reply there for now. However, this question I felt like addressing now. So here’s my 2 cents. :coin: :coin:

The quote from MN140, on the sage not dying, I think is interpreted in two ways, both of which I think are valid.

:one: The first interpretation is according to the Buddha’s explanation that immediately follows. He says that the sage will not die because they will not be reborn:

The sage at peace will not be reborn, will not grow old, and will not die. […] For [Pali hi, indicating an explanation] they have nothing which would cause them to be reborn. Not being reborn, how could they grow old? Not growing old, how could they die?

That is, they won’t die again after they aren’t reborn. This is easy to understand, and it’s clearly one intended meaning, if not the main one.

(Notice that I translate “will not die” instead of “does not die”. The Pali present tense often has this sense of future/eternal truth, especially in terse statements like this, and I think in English this sense is better captured by using “will”. This slightly different translation may take away some of the potential confusion.)

:two: The second interpretation is that a sage will not die because they have no sense of self. So from their perspective there is the death of the body (as it says earlier in the same sutta: “When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end …”), but there is no individual or person or “me” who dies. As it says right before the quote: “Having gone beyond all conceiving, one is called a sage at peace.” In other words, they don’t conceive that they are going to die. So this is another way—a less literal way—in which the arahant has gone beyond death.

However, to get to the heart of your question, in the second case ‘death’ still means actual physical death. It’s not the death of some kind of mind state, like certain momentary interpretations of Dependent Arising have it. So in either case it seems to supports the multiple-lifetime interpretation of Dependent Arising. That is to say, I do not see how this quote would support “rebirth in the present moment” as Ven Payutto calls it. Since the death in question is not a present moment death but a physical death, so is the birth in the same quote.

I also don’t know where the 2/3 and 1/3 division comes from. :confused: Your explanation may be right. But in either case, if one acknowledges that the standard 12-fold sequence is about actual rebirth, then at least the Nidāna Saṃyutta (SN12) is almost exclusively about that. Other main suttas on Dependent Arising (DN15 and MN38) are also clearly about rebirth, even though they present different sequences.

Perhaps the two people are just using different words but practically they are doing the same thing? (let’s say they both believe in literal rebirth) […] I’d be interested to hear what people think are the practical consequences! :slight_smile:

It doesn’t answer your question, but I can say that the general practical consequences for other people was not a concern for me when writing the book. As far as I’m concerned, they will have to judge that for themselves. :slight_smile:

But Dep. Arising is only understood by the noble ones. And problems will always arise when we think we are noble ones but we are not, when we think we have right view but we have wrong view. Then the whole path may actually be blocked, because we stop looking for alternatives. We think we already know and understand the Dhamma, but we don’t. :no_mouth: Hence it’s good to have this in mind:

The fool who thinks they’re a fool is wise at least to that extent. But the true fool is said to be one who imagines that they are wise. (Dhp63)

In non-rebirth interpretations of Dependent Arising I have sometimes encountered the idea that stream winners may still have to take rebirth on faith, that they aren’t necessarily completely sure about it. This is wrong view, though. The core insights of the stream winner, especially the fruit, actually revolve around rebirth. That noble ones understand and have seen how rebirth functions, and that it involves no self (and that it can therefore cease): this exactly their insight into Dependent Arising (and Cessation). :slightly_smiling_face:

Hence contemplation of DA is said to be the “method of the noble ones” in the suttas. It is, crucially, not the method of the puthujjanas! :smiley:

This may be something to consider when some teacher say their interpretations of Dependent Arising are more practical, more applicable to daily life, compared to the traditional multiple-lifetime interpretation. Well, yes, they may well be! But that exactly defeats the point. Insights into DA are not those encountered in daily life. The noble trainees are solving a fundamentally different problem than the puthujjanas. They are the only ones who actually see the problem.

That said, as I also hinted at in the book, it may be that some noble ones just don’t have enough knowledge of the suttas to interpret Dependent Arising correctly on the technical/theoretical level. In some places sutta study is (or was, at least) actively discouraged, and the canon locked away in a glass cabinet. In such situations even noble ones may not have enough literary knowledge of the suttas to teach Dependent Arising in line with the Buddha’s intentions, even though they do have right view.

I hope that makes sense. Either way, it’s helpful to be able to tell apart theoretical differences of opinion from more fundamental ones. Because I think even two arahants will probably have some of those theoretical differences, since they exist on the level of intellect and not on the deeper level of view. :slight_smile: (For example, explaining certain factors of DA in a certain way can be a mere intellectual difference or a skillful way of teaching. But the claim that stream winners would still take rebirth on faith, exists on the level of view.)

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Avijja and tanha have always blinded us for the presence of unworldly peace. We have always been so obsessed and oriented upon formations arising and ceasing and temporary constructed mind-states. We have ignored Nibbana as reality because we have always seen formations or produced states as me, mine and my self. We have always been like people who think about a forest in terms of trees and forget that a forest is also defined as empty space between trees. In the same way we have always been blinded for that suble peace that also defines our lifes.

The end of grasping in this very life confirms that rebirth has ended, right? I believe there is nothing but this that can confirm the end of rebirth. It is not some idea, or intellectual understanding of PS that can confirm the end of rebirth.
In the actual absence of avijja and tanha, PS is certaintly also understood as momentary in this very life. It cannot be else. And this is not different from understanding that dimension in this very life that is cooled, extinguished, peaceful, stilled, Nibbana.

Him I call deluded, Aggivessana, who has not abandoned the taints that defile, bring renewal of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing, and death; for it is with the non-abandoning of the taints that one is deluded. Him I call undeluded who has abandoned the taints that defile, bring renewal of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing, and death; for it is with the abandoning of the taints that one is undeluded. The Tathagata, Aggivessana, has abandoned the taints that defile, bring renewal of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing, and death; he has cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Just as a palm tree whose crown is cut off is incapable of further growth, so too, the Tathagata has abandoned the taints that defile…done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising.” (MN36)

A sotapanna is still deluded according this fragment because he/she has not done away yet with all that brings renewel of being. Only an arahant has.

I feel this also makes sense. Apart from an arahant nobody is yet totally free from the habit of me and mine making. And as long mind gives rise to this world, and we act upon it, we are not yet really fully enlightend.

Yes there is. This one can read here:

… "he does not. cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands thus: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done
has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ (MN140)

This is, of course, about PS as a momentary process in this very life. In this very life is being experienced what the absence of avijja and tanha means and no states are constructed, no bhava is constructed due to the absence of grasping in this very life. No birth in a world of me, mine and my self takes place anymore because it is not constructed.

Can one claim: ‘i understand how rebirth works’… and not be able to predict where someone has taken rebirth? I feel that people will think that this person has no clue how rebirth works. I feel, being able to speak in an intelligent way about a 3L model of PS is never the same as really understanding of how rebirth works. It is just intellectual knowledge. One needs the best intuitive or gnostic abilities to really understand how rebirth works. As part of that perfected intuition the heavenly eye. which sees directly the relation between someones views, kamma and rebirth place at the moment of dying.

Hi Emptiness :slight_smile: , I’m only going to engage with you if you put forth a real argument, explaining your thought process as to why you think the suttas support a momentary intepretation of DO.

Otherwise, please don’t chunk up my thread with this type of low effort rhetorical-question-“these suttas prove my point by themselves”-posting! :smiley: :green_heart:

Hi Green, I’m trying to uncover good arguments for a specific interpretation of DO.

Please don’t bring up an entirely new topic in my thread! Please show some consideration for what I’m trying to accomplish by asking my questions :slight_smile: :yellow_heart:

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Please stick to the topic. Please don’t fill up my thread with these stream-of-consciousness type posts :yellow_heart: :green_heart:

Don’t derail my thread, Green! :smiley:

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Oh, that’s handy! Thanks for posting the link.

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Hi, Erika. :slight_smile:

This is a main reason I have heard for people who accept a more esoteric/metaphorical interpretation of dependent arising. The reasoning offered is that the suttas discuss a process whereby some can reflect on dependent arising in their own experience in the present life, therefore it ought be something happening moment to moment that can be observed.

So for the above view, all the suttas that talk about people contemplating dependent arising in the present contradict a three-life interpretation. One key passage for this is MN 79:

“Nevertheless, Udāyī, leave aside the past [lives] and the future [lives]. I shall teach you the Dhamma: ‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.’”

I filled in ‘[lives]’ in brackets because this is how people who hold the momentary view often read the passage in light of the context of the sutta.

This is relevant because you very well may hear arguments like the one above given from certain practitioners and teachers, so it’s good to have discussed it beforehand. One point to consider is what the word ‘reflect’ implies or means. As you mentioned in your comment on the book, there is often a bias in modern Buddhism towards wanting to observe phenomena moment by moment. But is this really the entire scope of Buddhist practice? SN 12.51 is one place to look for information.

You may be interested in this thread.
[History Question: Interpretations of Dependent Arising]
In the above thread, I asked if anyone had examples of historical precedents for Buddhists re-interpreting DA and denying the traditional explanation. So far, nobody has given any such precedent. It seems it is a modern phenomenon, as would be expected. (Again, with the caveat of some esoteric Tantric sutras).

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Offhand, I can just say that I have seen the momentary interpretation of DO in Abhidharma discussions such as in the Mahavibhasa of the Sarvastivadins. It seems to have been an alternative way of looking at the concept to explain mental processes that last a short time. I’m not sure where it came from, perhaps it was the Abhidharmikas who created it. They seem to have created many of the ideas that are still taught in modern Buddhism. And they also seem to have created sutras to support those ideas, which are usually combinations of existing teachings or alternative interpretations that served different purposes.

As far as suttas that support the momentary interpretation, it would probably be the shorter chains that start with craving or contact or conflict. They would more easily be interpreted as pertaining to what’s happening in our minds right now rather than creating an existential model of rebirth. The classic 12 steps that begin with ignorance don’t make as much sense as representing a single life.

[Edit: The other thing to remember, which I think many people still do not really think about or dismiss, is that the Pali suttas are the sutta pitaka of only one school of Buddhism, but the ideas of other schools had intermingled. Sutras supporting ideas that Theravadins today talk about may have existing in other school’s pitakas, which don’t exist anymore. I run into quotations from sutras in Sarvastivada Abhidharma that don’t exist anymore fairly often.]

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Hi Venerable! :grinning:

Yes, it’s hard to say, like, analytically, what the consequences are, since people use language in different ways. As you say here:

Yeah, something that is on my mind is how some of the things the Thai Forest Tradition Kruba Ajahns said about e.g. the nature of the mind definitely sounds a bit odd when contrasted with the suttas.

But then one of the qualities of a Buddha is that they are able to explain really well what’s going on. And without being sort of immersed in the way the Buddha talks about things, it makes sense that confusion would be caused by a less clear terminology.

Someone pointed out to me in PM that the real trouble could come with the cessation sequence.

As far as I know, it’s unclear what it means to have stopped dying in the moment, so there’s more leeway for people to project in their own ideas – unless they insist on ‘not dying in the moment’ is just another term for no greed, hatred and delusion in the mind. Then it’s back to maybe just being a bit muddled about the textual understanding of the suttas.

Hi Venerable! :innocent:

I guess I’m kind of asking the same question as you did in that thread, though I’m more focusing on how these modern interpretations of DO (DA) are justified in terms of the suttas.

For example, in Catastrophe-Apostrophe, Ajahn Amaro writes (p. 38/40):

In Ajhan Amaro’s book it’s not really clear to me how this interpretation (and others) is being justified in the suttas.

But from the preface and acknowledgements section at the start, it does indicate that the contents of the books is based on the teachings of Ajahn Buddhadāsa, Somdet Buddhaghosajahn (Phra Payutto) and Ajahn Sumedho, much of it in a retreat setting with the latter two.

It makes me wonder if any of them made a strong sutta based argument for their interpretations. I tried looking in Somdet Buddhaghosajahn (Phra Payutto)'s book, which is how this thread got started :nerd_face:

Are they just building on the heterodox teachings of Ajahn Buddhadāsa then?

Edit:

Thanks for this!

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