Suttas the words of the buddha?

[Coemgenu]

So I randomly found this uncited on Reddit (and keep in mind this could well be a fake sutta because it is uncited):

Buddha and Ananda were walking thorugh a forest in Autumn (fall).

Ananda asked Buddha after being with him for many year,"Have you told us everything about the Truth? Is there anything you have kept secret or anything that you did not want to tell?

The forest was fully covered with fall leaves. Buddha bent down and grabbed as many leaves as he can and said," This is all I can say. The Truth is like all these fallen leaves in the forest. The Truth is larger than anything we could ever imagine and the language we use is mediocre compared to the Truth. I cannot say everything about the Truth. You will have to know it yourself. That is the only way to know It."

It has the dialogue between Ven Ananda and the Buddha. I’ll do some more looking to see if this came from anywhere.

EDIT: this one is fake. It is just a coincidence both this one and what Ven Bhavaviveka cites both have Ven Ananda.

Says the person who posted it on Reddit: “I heard this story from an enlightened master and so I put it in my own words.”

Yes. That is how it works when you get a teaching from an alleged enlightened master, you change it to suit yourself better.

[Coemgenu]

Twisting the Simsapasutta is a long tradition. Look at this terrible (IMO) article from the Tricycle magazine from Fall 2020. And they are citing the Pali version, not some eccentric version, making their twisting rather deliberate.

Yet in certain places the suttas complicate any such finality. A famous passage from the Samyutta Nikaya relates the moment when the Buddha, taking up some leaves from a simsapa or rosewood tree, asks rhetorically, “What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest? . . . In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous” (SN 56.31). The Buddha held back, he goes on to say, in order to focus on the basics, but he still left a lot for us to learn. And his followers woke up in a variety of ways that introduced fresh perspectives as well. This ongoing process of discovery would explain why we have so many sutras now, and why the authors of those sutras must have felt unashamed when they put new words in the Buddha’s mouth. They must have seen the dharma as a project that would lead later generations into terrains unimagined by the World Honored One. Yes, he turned the dharma wheel, but it would need to turn again without him.

@Dhammanando

Since you read Chinese you might like to check the Vijñānakāya of the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma Piṭaka.

I suspect you’ve overestimated me, bhante, but I will give it a look.

@cdpatton

Do we know what text his quotation is found?

I missed this. It’s called Tarkajvālā, but I know nothing about it.

[cdpatton]

@Coemgenu

I missed this. It’s called Tarkajvālā, but I know nothing about it.

Oh. It looks like I would need to learn Tibetan to find that passage.

[Dhammanando]

@cdpatton

Oh. It looks like I would need to learn Tibetan to find that passage.

Malcolm Eckel has translated chapters 4 and 5 in his Bhāviveka and His Buddhist Opponents. I think these are probably the most interesting chapters for those who don’t have any especial interest in the Madhyamaka.

Here are the chapter contents of the whole work:

Exposition of Bhāviveka’s own view

1. Not giving up the mind of awakening (bodhicittāparityāga)
2. Taking the vow of an ascetic (munivratasamāśraya)
3. Seeking the knowledge of reality (tattvajñānaiṣaṇā)

Critiques of the views of non-Madhyamaka Buddhists

4. Introduction to the analysis of reality according to the Śrāvakas (śrāvakatattvaviniścayāvatāra)
5. Introduction to the analysis of reality according to the Yogācāras (yogācāratattvaviniścayāvatāra)

Critiques of four Hindu darśanas

6. Introduction to reality according to the Sāṃkhyas (sāṃkhyatattvāvatāra)
7. Analysis of reality according to the Vaiśeṣikas (vaiśeṣikatattvaviniścaya)
8. Analysis of reality according to the Vedānta (vedāntatattvaviniścaya)
9. Introduction to the analysis of reality according to the Mīmāṃsā (mīmāṃsātattvanirṇayāvatāra)

Critique of the Jains

10. Exposition of the realization of omniscience (sarvajñatāsiddhinirdeśa)

Four verses in praise of the Buddha

11. Exposition of praise and characteristics (stutilakṣaṇanirdeśa)

[Snowbird]

@Coemgenu

Twisting the Simsapasutta is a long tradition. … making their twisting rather deliberate.

Yet in certain places the suttas complicate any such finality.

Oh, that is bad. As a general rule I recommend ignoring people who use the word “complicate” as a verb. I think it’s academic speak for “I have to come up with a novel interpretation in order to get a grade/published”.

[samma-vayamo]

@paul1

In developing a practice an essential skill is coming to an agreement between the meaning of a sutta which is already understood, with new information from another sutta. In this way is built up a network of meaning between a cluster of suttas which form the nucleus of a particular stage of practice. So it is not necessary to understand all suttas, only those relevant. This is progress by understanding. One reason the Anapanasati and Satipatthana suttas are considered important is because they readily form a core with reference to the understanding of other suttas, and also have a practice orientation.

Can you give examples of these clusters and the stages they pertain to, aside from the two suttas mentioned?

[samma-vayamo]

@cdpatton

I decided today to translate SA 404 so we can see it in English. It has that same caveat that rules out the validity of what the Buddha knew but didn’t teach as is found in the Pali version. So, I can see why Sarvastivadins could make these arguments.

Where can I find it?

[paul1]

@samma-vayamo

clusters and the stages they pertain to

By “stages” is meant the interests at a particular time, which depends on temperament and is very much an individual matter. Rather than give examples I am more interested in practitioners developing the skill, which means starting with what they know and building on that. The thread which links one sutta to another is meaning, and this is specified in MN 95 and AN 7.64.

“Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises.”—-MN 95

“Comes to an agreement” means comparing new material with suttas already known and understood, and ideally consolidated by direct experience.

“If he didn’t know the meaning of this & that statement — ‘This is the meaning of that statement; that is the meaning of this’ — he wouldn’t be said to be one with a sense of meaning. So it’s because he does know the meaning of this & that statement — ‘This is the meaning of that statement; that is the meaning of this’ — that he is said to be one with a sense of meaning. This is one with a sense of Dhamma & a sense of meaning.”—-AN 7.64

There are certain words in the suttas with specialized meanings, such as “establish” and “ develop.” The establishment of mindfulness or any other path structure means its individual components and linear arrangement are known and implemented. Development means the structure is brought into functioning operation. This involves a cyclic process where in Satipatthana the fourth foundation is brought to bear on the three preceding it.

The idea of development within the Satipatthana sutta:

Establishment: “In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself.

Development: "Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. "—MN 10

By comparing the two above statements, readers should be able to discern the principles of establishment (singularity) and development (movement).

The terse nature of the Sutta Pitaka is shown when this development is explained in SN 47.40, and without the help of other suttas, understanding the Satipatthana sutta would not be possible.

[cdpatton]

@samma-vayamo

Where can I find it?

It’s not released yet, but it’ll be in the next batch at Dharma Pearls in a week or two.