Thai monastery’s five points in addition to 8 Garudhamma

Requires mindfulness! Good for practicing!

With metta

Thank you for your considered response Bhante. Definitely agreed that nobody likes to dwell in the process of talking forever about the “ways” things are done. Endless discussions, endless considerations and deliberations. The “doing” can seem far away.
Unfortunately, for now, the “discussion” about Bhikkhuni ordination in contemporary theravada Buddhism is situated in that exact frustrating place: on “how” it is done (the ways), not “if” (mostly, a few bad apples though). Part of this dealing with the very old, complex system subject to inertia like the Sangha/Thai state/human foibles and biases. That said, I do think the people focused on the “how” do deserve to be embraced and worked with-- even if it is frustrating. I don’t know that we can do much for those people who don’t believe in any ordination for women at all though.

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I believe the 2nd two columns are to illustrate that if the word Siladhara was replaced with homosexual or disabled then it would be obvious discrimination. As I understand it they did not issue additional 5 points regarding homosexuality or disabilities.

As to your question; as far as I know the Buddha only spoke about celibate and non-celibate relationships. Though I think there are rules about ordaining intersex people.

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Is there a logic behind the seniority system in Buddhist Vinaya or is it illogical?

Discussing about it leads to raising awareness and changing people’s attitudes/standards …ideally. It also might be an opportunity to look at good practice elsewhere- models we can look at, that seems to work better than the standard model.

The monastery that I know about is the retreat centre I mentioned above. The head nun is a 10 preceptor. After the founder Ven Amathagavesi, who was very ‘nun-friendly’ and pretty much forbade bhikkhus to live at his centres, passed away, the nuns one their own, chose a monk to (in line with the vinaya?) to stay in the premises. He is also very ‘pro-nun’ and friendly/not dominating bhikkunis. The administration is done consensually also incorporating the main dayakas (lay disciples). Vast majority of the time is spent meditating and practicing with a tight structure for the day. There was a slight issue with too much control perhaps and some nuns disaggregates and went and formed their own monasteries, but here is good communication and movement of nuns among them. I don’t think the satellite monasteries have resident bhikkhus. Its a stable model and has been running for about nearly 50 years. I’m not saying this is the ultimate best way but it seems ‘good or healthy enough’.

with metta

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Thanks Mat,

Note that the quote is from Bhante Sujato, not me, though I’d be happy to take credit for it… :blush:

No such luck -quote reattributed :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

with metta

Just to add to my ramblings…

What I was musing about was that some of the positive consequences, and beneficiaries, of enabling changes may be quite unexpected. A key argument for sorting out problems with Bhikkhuni ordination and support is, of course, to give women better opportunities, and I don’t think anyone would want to diminish the importance of that!

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Thank you for posting this Mat. I never could understand the problem of Nuns ordination. Now it seems the penny dropped.
In some monasteries, it seems nuns can’t be ordained as they are not prepared to accept the 8 Garudhamma. However, nuns ordained under Ajhan Braham are ordained without accepting these eight.
The fight about is to force universal acceptance of nuns ordination without the inclusion of the eight Garudhamma.
Am I correct?