The 8 Liberations are Brahmanical

[Vaddha]

Hello!

@knotty36

What real, sutta-based evidence do we have for reading kasiṇa practice into the aṭṭha vimokkhā beyond their (often, but not exclusively) occurring together?

The exact same description is used for the 2nd vimokkha:

AN 10.29 / DN 15 …
Not perceiving form internally, they see visions externally. This is the second liberation.

AN 10.29
Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, yellow, with yellow color, yellow hue, and yellow tint. [etc.]

So here kasiṇa practice is at least part of the 2nd vimokkha, and this is clearly somehow related to the first. I’m not entirely sure on what the first is—it’s been interpreted in various different ways ny traditional exegesis. I think it may be some kind of embodied meditation on the elements transitioning into the totality of kasiṇa practice where an element/color takes over completely (like infinite space, etc.).

@knotty36

Are you familiar with SN 7.11? It seems little known: there’s not much written on it. But I think it may be important for insight into the aṭṭha vimokkhā.

Very familiar! It’s also in the Sutta Nipāta (Snp 1.4). I don’t quite see how you might connect it to the aṭṭha vimokkhā though—it makes no mention of them, the kasiṇas, or any other particular meditation practice. It does mention meditative qualities, such as saddhā, sati, vīriya, etc., but these are rather general and broad. Maybe you meant another sutta, or if not, could you elaborate on how you see the relation between these two?

@knotty36

To my knowledge, DN 15’s treatment of the aṭṭha vimokkhā is unique to that sutta; on a related note, so are its definitions of paññāvimutti and ubhatobhāgavimutti.

I’m not sure there’s any reason they would be unique. The same exact list is found elsewhere in the Anguttara Nikāya and the Majjhima Nikāya, and in relation to meditative prowess of the Buddha/Saṅgha; the Eight Liberations are listed as something powerful that one becomes very competent in (just as MN 77 discusses) for liberation. The specific application of the aṭṭha vimokkhā here in terms of the ubhatobhāgavimutti may be unique, but not the list itself. Thoughts on this?

@knotty36

That the aṭṭha vimokkhā in DN 15 appear in a discourse on paṭiccasamuppāda–in particular, in the context of the nāmarūpa-viññāṇa tangle–is significant, and should not be overlooked (along with the Snp 4.11 tie-in which you mentioned).

Yes. Actually, in the post on Snp 5.7, two of my comments here and here address the connection to Snp 4.11 and the tangle between nāmarūpa/viññāṇa further—drawing in Snp 3.12 and the translation of the Chinese Arthapada parallel by Charles Patton (very grateful!) as well for some insight into the relationship. I am beginning to think that Snp 4.11 and DN 15 may very well be related in some way. Whether DN 15 is a prose form of Snp 4.11, or perhaps it was given around the same time and place, or perhaps they simply cover the exact same theme. Either way, I agree it should not be overlooked, and some of how we interpret Snp 4.11’s historically anomalous passage on meditation, I think, can be informed by DN 15.

Mettā!