The Aspect of No-Change

Is it clear to you how it works if there really are not different me’s? If there is some me that persists, unchanging, across time, how does it remember the changing moments that this persistent, unchanging me has experienced?

I ask this, because from the thrust of your question it seems you are under the impression that memory is not something that can be made, stored, accessed and so on in an ever changing environment. However, this is not true.

Memory in a computer is made, stored, accessed and so on at room temperature on silicon based devices. Room temperature is quite a bit above absolute zero; which is the temperature where everything is at rest and nothing is moving. So you see, normal computer memory - and memory in the brain for that matter - is functional in an environment above absolute zero with atoms, electrons, and the basic constituents of matter and energy that are constantly in flux.

Personally, I find it much harder to conceptualize how memory could be made, stored, accessed and so on in a non-changing environment.

:pray:

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I don’t know anything about you, but from the Buddha we get an3.32

I 'm not sure if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me here :rofl: But in anycase there’s an3.100 on the mutability of kamma for others reading along.

I haven’t a clue how memory works, not even memory in a single life let alone over multiple lives. I thought that you knew more than me and had some references so I could learn. That’s why I asked.

To you first point…

That’s not what I said. I said:

Right here, right now, in this moment, Past Stu is a memory held by Present Stu, but Past Stu isn’t Present Stu

Of course we can have recollections of other people. I think that’s beyond dispute. Having said that, one of the interesting things that someone who I consider reliable has said (which also agrees with descriptions in the suttas) about past life recollection is that it isn’t like memory in this life, it’s much more detailed, more vivid—a “re-experiencing” (their words, not mine).

One interesting analogy that I came across for multiple ‘me’s’ over a lifetime recently was Maria Popova answer to the question:

Are you the same person you were as a child?
In the Russian nesting doll of personhood, the child is always there, deep inside the incremental persons who grew out of her, informing and influencing them, but not identical to them. The key, I think, is to hold all the selves we used to be with tenderness, but to also let them go with courage.

Orion Magazine - Maria Popova Answers the Orion Questionnaire

I quite like that

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I cannot talk about these things anymore @Stu. Because people like you prefer theory above experience. Their theories compel them to denie anything stable, anything non-changing in their lifes and experience. For me this is not a suitable base for discussions. This all tends constant to denial and i do like that.

Already we addressed it right? If you have experience of the unchanging, stable, nibbāna, you’re basically at least a stream winner. Are you making a claim here? You have denied that you’re a stream winner many times. Therefore you don’t actually see what’s unchanging in your experience, and you cannot use that experience as a basis for your arguments. It’s basically an illusion.

Whatever. I am sincere towards @ Stu. If people are attached to some theory of mind that there is nothing constant, all changes all the time, i see no ground to investigate all this in an open unbiased way.

As I said to you over two years ago in this very thread

I’m sorry that you can’t accept what I say is true. Be well.

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You too ( must be at least 20 characters)

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Simply because from our point of view, you misinterpret the suttas, maybe due to your previous wrong views. I don’t think you can emotionally persuade us with such words as above. It’s best to stick to sutta citations instead of what you feel, as whatever you feel, it does make it necessary that your view is the right one.

You already know that we do not deny this, but we interpret this differently. Don’t just accuse of the strawman’s fallacy. I could very well put it this way: why @green is so resistant to the notion that total cessation, nothing after parinibbāna is the only unconditioned? Because your sense of self does not allow you to accept this truth.

Read SN15.1-20.

I understand that it’s a Brahminical viewpoint to think that we are all just waves on the ocean, ultimately the same oneness, mind. That’s just the subjective feeling of immersion in Dhammakāya (or something else) and wrong view.

A simple search already revealed that your view is basically the same as Advaita Vedanta.

One has to reflect on this then: DN16

“Subhadda, in whatever teaching and training the noble eightfold path is not found, there is no ascetic found, no second ascetic, no third ascetic, and no fourth ascetic. In whatever teaching and training the noble eightfold path is found, there is an ascetic found, a second ascetic, a third ascetic, and a fourth ascetic. In this teaching and training the noble eightfold path is found. Only here is there an ascetic, here a second ascetic, here a third ascetic, and here a fourth ascetic. Other sects are empty of ascetics.

Were these mendicants to practice well, the world would not be empty of perfected ones.

I was twenty-nine years of age, Subaddha,
when I went forth to discover what is skillful.
It’s been over fifty years
since I went forth.
Teacher of the references
for the systematic teaching:
outside of here there is no ascetic,

no second ascetic, no third ascetic, and no fourth ascetic. Other sects are empty of ascetics. Were these mendicants to practice well, the world would not be empty of perfected ones.”

Advaita Vedanta is clearly not the Buddha’s dhamma. If this is r/Buddhism, the whole mass of people would ask you not to misrepresent the Dhamma already.

How did it comes into your mind? Likely it’s that in ancient India, Buddhism absorped some of these ideas and formed the Mahāyāna, then it spread to Tibetan and you had prior experience with Tibetan Buddhism and that still colours your perception of what the dhamma is. Time to purify that view to become right view.

Venerable, you are a physicist, as far as I know.

What is your definition of truth, if I may ask, and how may you proof @greens assumptions about Nibbana wrong?

Just for the record, his oppinion (minus a few corns) is that held by mainline Theravada school.

If annata is still held to the point that mind is conditioned, Advaita Vedanta view does IMO not necessarily result. Infact this subtile difference may have been the reason for annata being introduced, while views of having to abandon empirical sense of self may be inflated

By Theravada I mean the ones who affirm commentaries, abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga. They are on the side of nothing after parinibbāna.

If you mean to refer to some thai forest tradition, then it’s not considered orthodox Theravada as it’s well known that they don’t place emphasis on Abhidhamma.

I am afraid this is a long one, you can read the post on Bhikkhu Bodhi on Nibbāna

To get started.

I haven’t got to the point of combining all the arguments yet, and once I do, it will still be very long. And it will invite more challenges, so not very inclined for now.

I think I already linked you to my reddit post, are you not convinced by that?

No idea what you’re writing here.

To be clear, you are invoking Buddhaghosa as an ally in your conception of nothing after parinibbāna? :pray:

To be frank, I haven’t actually read the Visuddhimagga, abhidhamma or commentaries fully.

So my trust is in my interactions with those whom I believe have read them and I asked many teachers many times, and they come out with the same answer.

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According to Wikipedia:

Buddhaghosa also argues that if nibbana were a mere absence or a nothingness, it would follow that the Buddhist path would be meaningless.[112]

In the Theravada tradition’s Abhidhamma texts, nibbāna is regarded as an uncompounded or unconditioned (asankhata ) dhamma (phenomenon, event) which is “transmundane”,[107][note 11] and which is beyond our normal dualistic conceptions.[109][quote 17]

What follows in the article are about a 100 different positions on what Nibbana is. Surprisingly Thanissaro seems to be mentioned as a cessationist.

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There is no sutta that says nor even suggest that asankhata refers to nothing at all after a last death. There are sutta’s that teach that asankhata must be known, and you will never know that mere cessation you aim at, never ever. It will always be only a prospect for the mere cessationalist.
Is that really the meaning of knowing asankhata (MN115)? I say…NO.

There are also sutta’s that teaches that asankhata is a synonym for peace, the uninclined, the truth, the very hard to see, the stable…and so on…and this is clearly not refering to nothing at all…! We do not have to doubt this. Asankhata does not refer to mere cessation.

About sense of self.
Impersonal processes do not long to cease, only ego does. So this whole project to cease relies on delusion from the very start to the end. That is not difficult to see.

I have no doubts this is the contribution of sectarians and not Buddha’s words. Sectarians always make such claims and emphazise how unique there teacher and teachings and attainments are. That is a normal ego-project.

What is really going on is that Buddha re-discovered what are the true characteristics of mind. He did not create them, but they became apparant to him after purification. While almost all beings associate mind with an ego or as limited, as local, as individual, as inherently hungry, Buddha discovered that this perception of mind nature, solely relies on the presence of defilements which are not an inherent part of the mind. Beings think, perceive the nature of mind in a distorted way. Mostly as an Ego or Atta.

Atta refers to this idea of ego, and I do never support this idea that mind and ego are the same.
It is complete ridicule to think about my view as an atta that would join with brahman.
I do not even accept Atta. All slander. It never ends. When does it end?

Have you read the website I linked?

This is what it says:

Attributes of Brahman
Brahman is described as:

Sat: Existence itself, the essence that is present in everything.
Chit: Consciousness or awareness that is intrinsic and self-evident.
Ananda: Bliss, the ultimate state of being that is serene and uncaused.
Atman: The Self Beyond the Ego
Atman is often mistaken for the ego or the individual personality. However, in Advaita Vedanta, Atman is the pure self that is identical to Brahman. The confusion arises due to Maya, which veils our true nature.

The chit is exactly what you call the mind. And it’s clear that they do not identify the ego (sense of self) with atman, but the brahman, which includes this chit.

This is getting nowhere once you just cast doubt on suttas which doesn’t match your views, it’s just like the secular Buddhists who select which sutta is authentic based on whether it fits their view of no literal rebirth.

Basically our whole interaction is not getting through to you for you to say this. Anyway, I have yet to collect the whole thing and then present it in a super long essay, but I anticipate you will not be convinced anyway.

Not so many.

Perhaps Buddhaghosa is along the lines of mahasi (who is also orthodox Theravada)

Mahasi Sayadaw, one of the most influential 20th century Theravada vipassana teachers, states in his “On the nature of Nibbana” that “nibbana is perfect peace (santi)” and “the complete annihilation of the three cycles of defilement, action, and result of action, which all go to create mind and matter, volitional activities, etc.”[139] He further states that for arahants “no new life is formed after his decease-consciousness.”[140] Mahasi Sayadaw further states that nibbana is the cessation of the five aggregates which is like “a flame being extinguished”. However this doesn’t mean that “an arahant as an individual has disappeared” because there is no such thing as an “individual” in an ultimate sense, even though we use this term conventionally. Ultimate however, “there is only a succession of mental and physical phenomena arising and dissolving.” For this reason, Mahasi Sayadaw holds that although for an arahant “cessation means the extinction of the successive rise and fall of the aggregates” this is not the view of annihilation (uccheda-diṭṭhi) since there is ultimately no individual to be annihilated.[141] Mahasi further notes that “feeling [vedana] ceases with the parinibbāna of the Arahant” and also that “the cessation of senses is nibbāna” (citing the Pañcattaya Sutta).[142] Mahasi also affirms that even though nibbana is the “cessation of mind, matter, and mental formations” and even the cessation of “formless consciousness”, it is not nothing, but it is an “absolute reality” and he also affirms that “the peace of nibbana is real.”[143]

Maybe their notion of nothing means does not exist. But nibbāna exist just means it’s possible to end rebirth.
It’s hard to judge without great familiarity with their works, of which I don’t have.

Basically, my views is very much aligned with Mahasi Sayadaw, except for that last few lines which is debatable on what they mean by nothing.

Read on in the article, B. Thanissaro is not of the position of cessation, his position is unestablished consciousness is leftover.

According to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, individuals up to the level of non-returning may experience nibbāna as an object of consciousness.[web 15][note 18] Certain contemplations with nibbāna as an object of samādhi lead, if developed, to the level of non-returning.[125] At that point of contemplation, which is reached through a progression of insight, if the meditator realizes that even that state is constructed and therefore impermanent, the fetters are destroyed, arahantship is attained, and nibbāna is realized.[126]

Yes with Advaita, mind/soul are incarnated Brahman.

But there is the possibility of a spirit, too. That could still be Nibbana while mind/soul are still not-self.

Buddha constantly saying six senses are not-self does not necessarily mean that self is an illusion.

No, i seldomly read all this endless linking sites

About Vedanta

My experience is…ask socalled experts on Vedanta and they have all different ideas. I do not care about this anymore. Bring two Buddhist together and a war on doctrine starts. The same with Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Jews, and Vedanta. I feel no need to investigate all this, because you never know who is an expert. Someone can be an expert on scripture, on abhidhamma,…and? That does not mean that this person is a Dhamma expert. There are endless scholar-like experts. They cannot be considered Dhamma experts.

For me it sure that Buddha very well, with wisdom, understood that all that is liable to arise will also cease. So that is not interesting to seek. That cannot function as the island, safety, refuge. And what Buddha really sought is that what is different and does not have the characteristic to arise, cease and change. That what is stable. He did find this. Not in nothing remaining after a last death, but here and now.

If you cannot accept this, so be it.

It is only reasonable to not accept all blindly and certainly not as the literal words of the Buddha.
If one word is literally spoken by the Buddha we may be glad :blush:

Thank you for leaving me in peace then.

This is before parinibbāna. The differences is after parinibbāna.

A related view of nibbana has been defended by the American Thai forest monk Thanissaro Bhikkhu. According to Thanissaro, “non-manifestive consciousness” (anidassana viññāṇa) differs from the kinds of consciousness associated to the six sense media, which have a “surface” that they fall upon and arise in response to.[web 18] In a liberated individual, this is directly experienced, in a way that is free from any dependence on conditions at all.[web 15][web 18] In Thanissaro’s view, the luminous, unsupported consciousness associated with nibbana is directly known by noble ones without the mediation of the mental consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, and is the transcending of all objects of mental consciousness.[web 15]

According to those who defend him, the unestablished consciousness survives death of arahant as they are not within the all, according to B. Thanissaro. Hence that is a position of something after parinibbāna. Which I do not approve.

Here is the relevant section cited in that Wikipedia article from Visuddhimagga of Buddhaghosa that seem problematic for the view of mere cessation as the orthodoxy of Theravada:

DISCUSSION ON NIBBÁNA

[Question 1] Is Nibbána non-existent because it is unapprehendable, like the hare’s horn?

[Answer] That is not so, because it is apprehendable by the [right] means. For it is apprehendable [by some, namely, the nobles ones] by the [right] means, in other words, by the way that is appropriate to it, [the way of virtue, concentration, and understanding]; it is like the supramundane consciousness of others, [which is apprehendable only by certain of the Noble Ones] by means of knowledge of penetration of others’ minds. Therefore it should not be said that it is non-existent because unapprehendable; for it should not be said that what the foolish ordinary man does not apprehend is unapprehendable.

Again, it should not be said that Nibbána does not exist. Why not? Because it then follows that the way would be futile. [508] For if Nibbána were nonexistent, then it would follow that the right way, which includes the three aggregates beginning with virtue and is headed by right understanding, would be futile. And it is not futile because it does reach Nibbána.

[Q. 2] But futility of the way does not follow because what is reached is absence, [that is, absence of the five aggregates consequent upon the cutting off of the defilements].

[A.] That is not so. Because, though there is absence of past and future [aggregates], there is nevertheless no reaching of Nibbána [simply because of that].

[Q. 3] Then is the absence of present [aggregates] as well Nibbána?

[A.] That is not so. Because their absence is an impossibility, since if they are absent their non-presence follows. [Besides, if Nibbána were absence of present aggregates too,] that would entail the fault of excluding the arising of the Nibbána element with result of past clinging left, at the path moment, which has present aggregates as its support.

[Q. 4] Then will there be no fault if it is non-presence of defilements [that is Nibbána]?

[A.] That is not so. Because it would then follow that the noble path was meaningless. For if it were so, then, since defilements [can be] non-existent also before the moment of the noble path, it follows that the noble path would be meaningless. Consequently that is no reason; [it is unreasonable to say that Nibbána is unapprehendable, that it is non-existence, and so on].

[Q. 5] But is not Nibbána destruction, because of the passage beginning, “That, friend, which is the destruction of greed … [of hate … of delusion … is Nibbána]?” (S IV 251).

[A.] That is not so, because it would follow that Arahantship also was mere destruction. For that too is described in the [same] way beginning, “That, friend, which is the destruction of greed … of hate … of delusion … is Arahantship]” (S IV 252).

And what is more, the fallacy then follows that Nibbána would be temporary, etc.; for if it were so, it would follow that Nibbána would be temporary, have the characteristic of being formed, and be obtainable regardless of right effort; and precisely because of its having formed characteristics it would be included in the formed, and it would be burning with the fires of greed, etc., and because of
its burning it would follow that it was suffering.

[Q. 6] Is there no fallacy if Nibbána is that kind of destruction subsequent to which there is no more occurrence?

[A.] That is not so. Because there is no such kind of destruction. And even if there were, the aforesaid fallacies would not be avoided.
Also because it would follow that the noble path was Nibbána. For the noble path causes the destruction of defects, and that is why it is called “destruction”; and subsequent to that there is no more occurrence of the defects.

But it is because the kind of destruction called “cessation consisting in non-arising,” [that is, Nibbána,] serves figuratively speaking as decisive-support [for the path] that [Nibbána] is called “destruction” as a metaphor for it.

It should also be noted that Buddhaghosa defines Nibbana to mean - and only mean:

That which is the entire dispassionate cessation of, the forsaking of, the discarding of, the freedom from, the non-attachment to that same craving.

Vb 4

Which is part of his Vibhaṅga; the Abhidammic text on analysis. From what I can tell, he simply does not mention or focus on the death of an enlightened one as anything special. I dare say that focusing on what happens after the death of an enlightened one is treated by him as at best irrelevant to the path and at worst not conducive to actually practicing it. That seems in accordance with what I understand the Teacher to have taught.

:pray: