The Buddha, Morality, Social Obligations and the Path

The Watercooler
141

The problem I see in this discussion is, so far, people are using the common (puthujana) meaning of ‘world’, not the one clearly given by the Buddha, as, I believe, the meaning in his teaching. When I apply the meaning given to ‘world’ by the Buddha, there is no contradiction for me in the Buddha choosing to spend most time alone in the forest and acting for change in those around him.

‘the world is found in this fathom-long body with its senses and perceptions’

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.045.than.html

In dealing with the suffering right before his eyes = compassion, he is not dealing with the world (an imagined thing = how someone thinks things are).

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142

more examples of ‘the conceit “I am”’

143

Hi all

Reading the sutta and Vinaya, I find advice on how to be moral (ethical) (wish I had the reference), encouragement to keep social obligations (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/en/dn31) and even how to budget as a layman (wish I had the reference).

For me, the Buddha has and all Arahants have given up the world, which is to be found in this fathom-long body with its senses and perceptions.

It is because of that, that they can respond wisely and compassionately to the suffering they see before them, not the suffering they create or imagine in their mind (their world view).

best wishes

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144

Well, i suppose you could read it that way. i don’t know why you are telling me about it. are you in charge of citing examples of conceit ie throwing the first stone so to say? nothing personal, just asking. :smile_cat:

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This is quite amazing. A river with legal status.
In switzerland there has been a lot of work done on giving animals the same legal status as humans but so far no rivers are on the list.

do you think we are becoming human at last?

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What would a “squirrel’s feeling place” be, I wonder.

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147

what is the meaning of the word “world” given by the Buddha? not a quiz. just curious.

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148

[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] “I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos.”

It’s not to be reached by traveling,
the end of the cosmos —
regardless.
And it’s not without reaching
the end of the cosmos
that there is release
from suffering & stress.

So, truly, the wise one,
an expert with regard to the cosmos,
a knower of the end of the cosmos,
having fulfilled the holy life,
calmed,
knowing the cosmos’ end,
doesn’t long for this cosmos
or for any other. - AN 4.45

Loka is the pali word usually translated as world but by Ven Thanissaro here as cosmos.

See also:

At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origin and the passing away of the world. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes … In dependence on the body and tactile objects … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.”

Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Empty is the world, empty is the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said, ‘Empty is the world’?”

“It is, Ānanda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ And what is empty of self and of what belongs to self? The eye, Ānanda, is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Forms are empty of self and of what belongs to self. Eye-consciousness is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Eye-contact is empty of self and of what belongs to self…. Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—that too is empty of self and of what belongs to self.

“It is, Ānanda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’”

However, the Buddha does not exclusively use world in this sense, sometimes he uses it in the common sense meaning.

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world. Of that which the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, I too say that it does not exist. And of that which the wise in the world agree upon as existing, I too say that it exists.

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149

Global corporate interests have obtained legal status as persons and can sue countries for damages even when their business involves tobacco, unsustainable fishing and, abuse of the environment in various ways. The natural world needs legal protection from these greed driven corporations and the indifference and abuse of careless human beings.

Sovereign nations can be sued by multinational corporations for protecting the environment and their people from exploitation. This legal provision is written into many international trade agreements.

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150

I had the impression that ‘worldliness’ is about being caught-up in the 8 worldly concerns. Wise, kind and, compassionate behaviour for the benefit of one and all can be carried out without being caught-up in worldly concerns.

The world that ends with final release is this fathom-long body with its perception and intellect. With final release there is no more returning to any state of being.

While we are still present in this world we can still look after it as best we can! Surely, we should not abuse and vandalise nature and make it difficult for those yet to be born. Future generations will require a healthy and conducive environment for practice as well!

Not taking proper care of people and the Planet is not a sign of non-attachment born of Nibbida it is a sign of indifference and, ignorance.

Some can help a little some can help a lot but to stand-by and do nothing in the name of non-attachment is to misunderstand non-attachment. This does not mean we don’t need time in seclusion in order to deepen in clarity and wisdom.

If we are not caught-up in worldly concerns and we practice the 3-fold training we are heading in the right direction. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I totally agree that us laypeople have to get our act together and work for the betterment of the entire biosphere.

And if monks want to encourage, not criticize or obligate, but encourage people who are open to it to change their habits of consumption, to reduce impact on the planet, and encourage generosity to the poor and needy then that’s great.

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152

Apparently, monastics like ‘Bhikku Bodhi’ who practices his monastic rules of training, does not believe his training is compromised through his advocacy and active participation in the climate change issue.

It is up to individual monastics to decide what their needs are within their practice. I fully respect the choices they make. It is not for me to be telling anyone what they should do, or not do - that was never my intention.

As Buddhists, what we need to do, is a matter of individual choice, within the 3-fold training.

It seems to me, it has been others who have been wanting to tell monastics what is appropriate and fitting behaviour by repeatedly pointing out how they should conduct themselves. I believe, they should make their own assessment of their needs and act accordingly. :slight_smile:

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There are the facts of the EBT’s and there is also the facts of our lived reality ‘here and now’ of living on a Planet in peril! If we lived in a time-warp world where everything stayed much the same, with a pristine environment, I could understand the ‘dogged’ insistence that nothing should ever change under any circumstances. I believe we need to be a bit more circumspect and realistic than that - IMO.

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Actually, if all monks lived in a time-warp where all their huts were simple, no electricity etc, or they lived under trees and such then that might go a long way in encouraging others to reduce their energy consumption and to live a more simple lifestyle. I think it would be cool to go to a monastery that is basically just a small nature preserve with some monks sleeping on the earth under trees, out in an open field, on a heap of straw, or in a cave. But that’s probably unlikely to occur.

But sure, I do think climate change, plastic pollution, habitat destruction and loss, increasing human population, and extreme poverty are serious issues, I won’t be writing any letters to buddhist teachers telling them not to talk about it. I do think it would be best if they presented a path forward in a purely encouraging way though. Doomsday narratives about climate change don’t work. But here’s what does.

And for quietistic bhikkhus completely devoted to their practice, I think they’re awesome.

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Doomsday narratives hmm… I am not sure that has anything to do with realism. People should be made aware of what is at stake if they trivialise climate change, habitat destruction, mass extinction, overpopulation, unsustainable growth and development, unsustainable production methods and mindless consumerism, the garbage and waste products polluting earth, air and, water - greed, hatred and, ignorance writ-large!

That’s not doomsday pessimism that is the world we live in ‘here and now’. It is not the world of the EBT’s. We have to acknowledge a few inconvenient truths before we gain the impetus to respond appropriately - collectively. This is realism in action not ‘head in the sand’ climate change denial or, confusion about the nature of non-attachment.

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157

I think it’s a question of psychology on what sort of rhetoric should be used to motivate people to do the most good. It might be the case that humans perform worse with a realist view than they do with an optimistic view. But I don’t know, it’s an empirical question that I have not researched.

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Third, using knowledge about audience beliefs and values, choose characters (heroes, villains, or victims) whom the audience can relate to and will care about. When casting characters, focus on relaying positive emotions associated with motivation and personal control instead of negative emotions associated with futility. Fourth, temporally link narrative components together with specific information about causality, risk, and human agency. Fifth, clearly identify the point of the story in terms of risks and benefits, emphasizing gains instead of losses, and referencing policy solutions with wide support if relevant. Employing such techniques may help correct suboptimal messaging structures that encourage cognitive resistance to scientific information, thereby facilitating information transmission to a larger segment of the population. Additionally, these techniques offer avenues for replicable research designs that may help to further advance the scientific understanding of climate change communication.

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159

If you are standing at a fork in a pathway and you have seen where one path leads - to a precipice - and the other path leads to an appropriate destination then, what should you do? To add to the danger it is also getting dark and that makes it even more hazardous to head toward the precipice.

One way danger, other way no danger! People come along - a whole civilization comes along - and it is pointed out: go that way danger, go that way no-danger!

Another psychological question we could ask is: why would anyone not encourage others to take the safe path? If they said, I was concerned that it might have a detrimental effect on their level of motivation, people need to learn through their own experience of falling off cliffs - what would you say about that?

Maybe we could tell them stories about the advantages of taking good pathways and avoiding dangerous ones. That’s well and good if there is the occasional hiker.

However, if there is a mass of people rushing towards the precipice you might have to put up a sign ‘DANGEROUS CLIFF AHEAD!!!’ written in bold red letters. Underneath the warning you might want to draw an arrow and write: take the other path!

This may be upsetting news for some, others might get irritated or, confused - as they were told they should walk in the unsafe direction. You may choose to do and act as you wish in the predicament we ‘now’ face as a species. :slight_smile:

There’s an interesting ‘big think’ video on the web-page below (scroll down): ‘Global Warming Forecast’.

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Us animals have evolved over hundreds of millions of years to avoid literal precipices, we have not evolved to deal with global climate change. It’s naive to think that a simple presentation of facts or fear-tactics will motivate people to massively alter their lifestyles over something that they did not evolve to directly comprehend.

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds - …the task that reason evolved to perform, which is to prevent us from getting screwed by the other members of our group. Living in small bands of hunter-gatherers, our ancestors were primarily concerned with their social standing, and with making sure that they weren’t the ones risking their lives on the hunt while others loafed around in the cave. There was little advantage in reasoning clearly, while much was to be gained from winning arguments.
Among the many, many issues our forebears didn’t worry about were the deterrent effects of capital punishment and the ideal attributes of a firefighter. Nor did they have to contend with fabricated studies, or fake news, or Twitter. It’s no wonder, then, that today reason often seems to fail us. As Mercier and Sperber write, “This is one of many cases in which the environment changed too quickly for natural selection to catch up.”

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161

I don’t accept your evolutionary theory of behaviour. I have seen many dubious applications of the theory of evolution by natural selection. It has been misused to justify ‘survival of the fittest’ economic theory and even ‘racism’.

It is not using fear-tactics when you inform people of the dangers they ‘realistically’ face. Just like health-warnings on cigarette packets (is that fear tactics) or just sound public health policy? People can still smoke if they wish but everything that can be done to inform them with accurate information about the risks they are taking has been done. To do otherwise would make no sense at all - IMO. :slight_smile:

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