The Buddha was a Brahmin

A very summery of Buddhist teaching gives the impression that the Buddha proposed his doctrine to refute erroneous Brahmanic views, but in the suttas, the Buddha calls himself a Brahmin.

Itivuttaka 100

Catukkanipata

Brahmanadhammayagavagga

Brähmanadhammayagasutta

2.1 "Ahamasmi, bhikkhave, brahmano yacayogo sadã payatapani gntimadehadharo

anuttaro bhisakko sallakatto. Variant: payatapani → payatapãni (bj, sya-all) 2.2Tassa me tumhe putta orasã mukhato jata dhammaja dhammanimmita dhammadayada, no amisadayada.

So It Was Said 100

The Book of the Fours

The Chapter on the Brahmin’s Offering of the Teaching The Brahmin’s Offering of the Teaching

This was said by the Buddha, the Perfected One: that is what I heard.

2.1"l, mendicants, am a brahmin, committed to charity, always open-handed, bearing my final body, a healer, a surgeon. 2.2 You are my true-born sons, born from my mouth, born of the teaching, created by the teaching, heirs in the teaching, not in things of the flesh.

The fact that “all phenomena are neither Atman/Attan & Atta” nor Ahamkara/Ahamkara" so completely complies with both the letter and spirit of Brahmanic philosophy that it has the force of non-refutation. The Vedic Atman and the Pali Atta/Attan are mentioned in the Canon not only to affirm the existential status of phenomena. A number of suttas contain Atman in their titles: Attantapasutta, Attadipasutta, Attanuvadasutta, Attarakkhitasutta, Attantapasutta.

Therefore, the fact that modern Buddhism does not include the concept of Atman as part of its teaching cannot be understood either from the standpoint of common sense or from the standpoint of philological intuition.

Such concepts as manas or buddhi, aham or atta, are not synonyms, and are translated into English arbitrarily, approximately, as “I” or “mind” without conveying the original meaning intended by the compilers of the Canon.

Ahankara Samyutta Nikãya 22.43

5. Attadipavagga

Attadipasutta

Savatthinidanam.

"Attadipa, bhikkhave, viharatha attasarana anaññasarang, dhammadipa

dhammasarang ananñasarans

Attadipanam, bhikkhave, vihartam attasarananam anaññasarananam

dhammadipanam chammasarananam gnaññasarananam yoni paparikkhitabba

'Kimjatikã sokaparidevadukkhadomanassypayasa, kimpahotika’ti?

Minor Collection

Dhamma Verses

The Chapter about the Self

If one regards oneself as dear one should guard oneself right well, during one of the three watches of the night the wise one should stay alert.

First one should establish oneself in what is suitable, then one can advise another, the wise one should not have any defilement.

The Canon also mentions Jiva Atman.

Dīgha Nikāya 23

Pāyāsisutta

14.12Yadā mayaṁ jānāma ‘kālaṅkato so puriso’ti, atha naṁ kumbhiṁ oropetvā ubbhinditvā mukhaṁ vivaritvā saṇikaṁ nillokema: Variant: nillokema → vilokema (sya-all, km) 14.13‘appeva nāmassa jīvaṁ nikkhamantaṁ passeyyāmā’ti. 14.14Nevassa mayaṁ jīvaṁ nikkhamantaṁ passāma. 14.15Ayampi kho, bho kassapa, pariyāyo, yena me pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: 14.16‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.

14.12When we know that that man has passed away, we lift down the pot and break it open, uncover the mouth, and slowly peek inside, thinking, 14.13‘Hopefully we’ll see his soul escaping.’ We assume that a soul must be immaterial and invisible, but clearly this was not always the case at the time. 14.14But we don’t see his soul escaping. 14.15This is how I prove that 14.16there is no afterlife.”

Concepts such as manas or buddhi, aham or atta are not synonymous and have been translated into English arbitrarily, roughly, as “self” or “mind,” without conveying the original meaning intended by the compilers of the Canon.

Ancient Indians considered transpersonal experience in its most subtle forms, which cannot be fully reduced even to the best modern frameworks or models. To conduct a discussion consistent with the Canon, it is necessary to understand that in ancient India, consciousness research was not based on any set of axioms and far exceeded what can be imagined by common sense or constructed from the theoretical frameworks of Western philosophical thought.

The Western intellectual tradition has defined a way of knowing in meta-terms and conceptual clichés, which modern people consider more reliable sources of knowledge than the multidimensional and holistic vision of the ancient Indian shastras. These concepts/terms are implicit in any movement of thought, whether we realise it or not, because they can be extracted from it. This way of organising thought demonstrates how the perception of meaning works. Experience is acquired indivisibly and only then subjected to analysis, unlike the construction of a metaphysical picture of the world from a set of ideas, which can be likened to the opposition of a living organism to an imaginary machine.

Mindfulness, the reading of experience, occurs only in one direction, from the whole to the particular. Just as it is impossible to reconstruct an unknown word from a set of letters, despite the fact that only knowledge of them makes reading possible.

But in order to understand the experience of perception, it is first necessary to reduce it to further indivisible and unique quanta of meaning (color, shape), to see how they are interconnected (place, relationship), and to assign meaning to it in accordance with linguistic terms.

Therefore, mindfullness can be called the objectification of perceptual experience in the most accessible, conventional manner.

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BY ĀCĀRYA NĀGĀRJUNA Yuktiṣaṣṭikākārikānāma

24.Alienated beings, who hold self [as] real,
Mistake existence and nonexistence.
Thus flawed, they are driven by addictions
And [hence] are deceived by their own minds.

25.Those who are expert in things
See them as impermanent,
Deceptive in nature, hollow,
Empty, selfless, and vacant.

26.With no basis and no perceptual object,
With no root and no foundation,
Totally arisen from the cause —misknowledge —
Bereft of beginning, middle, and end,

27.Essenceless—like a plantain [tree]—
Resembling a fairy city,
And an unbearable city of confusion,
Life appears like an illusion.

28.What is proclaimed as the truth in this world
By Brahmā [the Creator] and the others
Was declared “false” for the noble ones.
What else remains that is otherwise?

Buddhism is essentially a refutation of the then Brahmanism(and also the more recent ‘Hinduism’) that existed back then. Even the fundamentals of Vedic and Buddhist doctrine contradict each other. The Buddha even denied the authority of the Vedas which were the roots of Vedic beliefs and practices.

The vedic Doctrine posits an eternal self/soul(Atman) and the way to salvation(Moksha) is to realize that Atman is no different from Brahman(ultimate all pervading reality/entity) OR, Moksha is attained when Atman merges with Brahman(the definitions of moksha have nuanced differences depending on the school of Hinduism)

Buddhism on the other does not affirm an eternal self/unchanging soul. Such notions are considered to be false views and clinging to such views represents one of the fetters(Dasa Samyojana) that prevents us from attaining Nibbana.

Simply put, what is considered salvation in Hinduism ends up being an obstruction to the very same goal in Buddhism. What maybe the key to freedom in Hinduism ends up being another heavy chain that keeps us tethered within prison according to Buddhism.

The (Vedic) Brahmins knew that Buddhism denies/rejects the Vedic doctrine and their practices , which is why they started a millennia long history of defaming the Buddha and his doctrine and his followers, starting with Cinca

All the way till Adi Shankara. And honestly the defamation/propaganda peddling simply has not stopped, just look what’s going on in Social Media.

Of course, this does not mean all Vedic Brahmins were opposed to what the Buddha taught. Some, if not many ended up becoming Buddhists monks themselves, especially well known ones such as Dharmakirti, Buddhaghosa etc.

And Dharmakirti did not mince his words on his appraisal of the Brahmanical Doctrine:

Accepting the authority of the Vedas, believing in individual agency, hoping for merit from bathing, taking pride in caste, undertaking rites for the removal of evils: these are the five signs of stupidity, the destruction of intelligence.

-Bartley, Christopher (2015). An Introduction to Indian Philosophy, Hindu and Buddhist Ideas from Original Sources, p. 155. Bloomsbury Academic.

When Buddha said he was a Brahmin, I doubt he was implying that he was a Vedic Brahmin, as in someone who followed the Brahmanical/Vedic Religion. There is an entire section in the Dhammapada where the term Brahmin is redefined over and over again. By the Dhammapada’s definition, I guess every sincerely practicing Buddhist Monk would be a Brahmin.

And then you have another Sutta, where the Buddha states that he was not a Brahmin.

I am no brahmin, nor am I a ruler

Which is uttered here: snp3.4

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Do you think that before writing this essay, I wasn’t sufficiently familiar with the established set of beliefs you present as a refutation of my arguments? Or that I didn’t intend them in my initial statement?
Furthermore, you implicitly assert that the Buddha unknowingly used Brahmin language or contradicted himself.
If you truly want to understand the original teaching, you must first study it in its own terms. Then, the terms you “know well” will acquire a new context, and perhaps even meaning.

The Buddha used the word mokşa/mokkha to describe his liberation.

Majjhima Nikāya 80

Vekhanasasutta

16.10 so mokkhomhīti kho jāneyya no ca bandhanaṁ.

Middle Discourses 80

With Vekhanasa

16.10 They’d know ‘I’m released,’ and there would be no more bonds.

Nice strawman. I never said anything about how well read you were on anything.

Where was this assertion made ? What made you think this was so ? I almost feel like you are projecting here.

I don’t necessarily disagree with this. But how does it change the fact that Brahmanical terms like “Brahmin” were explicitly redefined by the Buddha over and over again in the Suttas ? What point are you trying to arrive at ?

Again what is the point here ? That Moksha in Hinduism and Buddhism are the same ? If that is the case, then you are categorically false.

Also I hope you’ve read the part of my reply where it mentions the fact that the Buddha went on to explicitly say that he was “not” a Brahmin in another sutta. How do you opine on that ?

How do you opine on the fact that a well known Ex-Hindu Brahmin Buddhist Philosopher like Dharmakirti had been very critical of the Brahmanical Doctrine ? If Buddhism and Brahmanism were essentially the same, do you think they would be critical about it like this ? Do you think the Hindu Acharyas would have been critical of Buddhism if the two doctrines never actually opposed each other ?

Forgive me for saying this but something tells me, you’ve taken my reply quite personally for some reason.

This seems like you are perhaps confusing the Sankaracharya commentary with the the actual content of the eraly prose Upanishads?

At least in the Bṛhadāraṇyakopaniṣad Yājñavalkya is far from making the claims you make for “vedic doctirne” as here;

sa yo manūṣyāṇāṃ rāddhaḥ samṛddho bhavaty anyeṣām adhipatiḥ sarvair mānuṣyakair bhogaiḥ sampannatamaḥ sa manuṣyāṇāṃ parama ānandaḥ | atha ye śataṃ manuṣyāṇām ānandāḥ sa ekaḥ pitṝṇāṃ jitalokānām ānandaḥ | atha ye śataṃ pitṝṇāṃ jitalokānām ānandāḥ sa eko gandharvaloka ānandaḥ | atha ye śataṃ gandharvaloka ānandāḥ sa ekaḥ karmadevānām ānando ye karmaṇā devatvam abhisampadyante | atha ye śataṃ karmadevānām ānandāḥ sa eka ājānadevānām ānandaḥ | yaś ca śrotriyo 'vṛjino 'kāmahataḥ | atha ye śatam ājānadevānām ānandāḥ sa ekaḥ prajāpatiloka ānandaḥ | yaś ca śrotriyo 'vṛjino 'kāmahataḥ | atha ye śataṃ prajāpatiloka ānandāḥ sa eko brahmaloka ānandaḥ | yaś ca śrotriyo 'vṛjino 'kāmahataḥ | athaiṣa eva parama ānandaḥ | eṣa brahmalokaḥ samrāṭ | iti hovāca yājñavalkyaḥ | so 'haṃ bhagavate sahasraṃ dadāmi | ata ūrdhvaṃ vimokṣāyaiva brūhīti | atra ha yājñavalkyo bibhayāṃ cakāra – medhāvī rājā sarvebhyo māntebhya udarautsīd iti || BrhUp_4,3.33 ||

(note also the vimokṣāyaiva and compare with vimokkho at for eg DN16)

so Gotoma’s near contempory just says " śrotriyo 'vṛjino 'kāmahataḥ " is the key to vimokṣāyaiva, which sounds like a pretty Buddhist thing to say.

You are comparing the ideas of a scholar who lived a thousand years after the Buddha, Shankaracharya, and claiming it is “vedic”. It is not.

The Chāndogyopaniṣad has the nice couplet;

yathā somya puruṣaṃ gandhārebhyo 'bhinaddhākṣam ānīya taṃ tato 'tijane visṛjet | sa yathā tatra prāṅ vodaṅ vā adharāṅ vā pratyaṅ vā pradhmāyītābhinaddhākṣa ānīto 'bhinaddhākṣo visṛṣṭaḥ || ChUp_6,14.1 ||
tasya yathābhinahanaṃ pramucya prabrūyād etāṃ diśaṃ gandhārā etāṃ diśaṃ vrajeti | sa grāmād grāmaṃ pṛcchan paṇḍito medhāvī gandhārān evopasaṃpadyeta | evam evehācāryavān puruṣo veda | tasya tāvad eva ciraṃ yāvan na vimokṣye 'tha saṃpatsya iti || ChUp_6,14.2 ||

before the even more Buddhist sounding;

tad eṣa ślokaḥ | na paśyo mṛtyuṃ paśyati na rogaṃ nota duḥkhatām | sarvaṃ ha paśyaḥ paśyati sarvam āpnoti sarvaśaḥ | iti | sa ekadhā bhavati tridhā bhavati pañcadhā | saptadhā navadhā caiva punaś caikādaśa smṛtaḥ | śataṃ ca daśa caikaś ca sahasrāṇi ca viṃśatiḥ | āhāraśuddhau sattvaśuddhiḥ | sattvaśuddhau dhruvā smṛtiḥ | smṛtilambhe sarvagranthīnāṃ vipramokṣaḥ | tasmai mṛditakaṣāyāya tamasas pāraṃ darśayati bhagavān sanatkumāraḥ | taṃ skanda ity ācakṣate || ChUp_7,26.2 ||

How much more Buddhist can you get than smṛtiḥ (sati) leading to mṛditakaṣāyāya?

(also note sanatkumāraṃ, who is speaking above, is referred to directly in DN3 as the originator of the Vijjācaraṇasampanno poem)

That is the entirety of the mokṣa talk in the early prose Upanishads that predate the (bulk of) the prose suttas.

ALL the other mokṣa talk is from the 8th century commentator Shankaracharya.

As for snp3.4 the Buddha says in the same poem;

“Yo brāhmaṇo sokamalaṁ ahāsi;
Tathāgato arahati pūraḷāsaṁ.”

and not only that but even;

“Sa vedagū sabbadhi vippamutto,
Tathāgato arahati pūraḷāsaṁ.”

Go Figure.

I was talking about the general concept of what Moksha entailed in the Vedic/Hindu sense. If what’s been mentioned is actually a commentary from Sankara, could you provide a reference on this instead of speculating ?

“Pretty Buddhist” doesn’t mean it is actually Buddhist is it ?

I never did and I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. This is just a strawman. Don’t put words in my mouth. But I’d like to know what exact “ideas” of the scholar are not vedic for curiosity’s sake.

Ironically you’d think Adi Shankara would have had nothing but praise for the Buddhist doctrine, given the fact that Madhyamaka Buddhism had immense influence over the Hindu school that he propounded(Advaita Vedanta), but he still ended up being one of the most fervent critics of Buddhism. Now ask yourself this, why did even an Acharya that belonged to a school of Hinduism that was greatly influenced by Buddhism still ended up implying in his writings that the Buddha was a schizophreniac ?

”Moreover, Buddha by propounding the three mutually contradictory systems, teaching respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of ideas only, and general nothingness, has himself made it clear either that he was a man given to make incoherent assertions, or else that hatred of all beings induced him to propound absurd doctrines by accepting which they would become thoroughly confused.”

Do you think he was clueless about the Vedic and Buddhist doctrines ? Or it’s because he knew they were not compatible in the slightest ? Whether what he stated was true or not is a different matter.

Why do his followers still celebrate how he supposedly “defeated” every Buddhist monk in debates up until this day and hence “got rid” of Buddhism in the subcontinent ? It’s almost as if all these Buddhist Monks and Hindu Acharyas that were critical of each other’s doctrine knew that their religions were distinct to the point that their differences could not be reconciled due to fundamental disagreements on the very nature of reality itself, oh wait !

Now all that Vedic/Chandas you’ve copy pasted won’t make sense to me, but I feel like it would have been better if you tried to refute what I’ve said by atleast attempting to correct me at what I’ve supposedly got so wrong about the Hindu/Vedic concept of Moksha, that too in English. A couple of sentences would’ve sufficed rather than an entire verbal banner made out of Vedic and then claiming all of that sounds “pretty Buddhist”.

And if you are really so concerned about the whole chronology of things, then I hope you realise that there is no concrete proof that any of the Upanishads were actually contemporary to the Buddha’s time period.

As Patrick Olivelle writes:

“In spite of claims made by some, in reality, any dating of these documents [early Upanishads] that attempts a precision closer than a few centuries is as stable as a house of cards”

So you, talking about Adi Shankara’s chronology and then providing references to a body of texts that could have very well been written centuries after The Buddha’s death is rather comical, if not shooting yourself in the foot. The fact these texts were written centuries later would make all the “Buddhist sounding” verses in them chronologically make sense. Now if you have any references from the earliest Vedic scriptures, the Vedas(that too the first three) which were the only Brahmanical texts explicitly mentioned in the Suttas, that show any “Buddhist sounding” verses, then do provide it for I’m curious to know about it, though it still will not disprove the fact that Buddhism and Hinduism/Vedic Religion/Brahmanism etc etc are fundamentally opposed to each other when it comes to doctrine and practice. And that is evident centuries later from the learned scholars from both religions, in their writings, in the scriptures etc etc from Dharmakirti to Shankara despite the two faiths having influenced each other even more by then.

And you can “Go figure” this out,

Why does Buddhism affirm a process based ontology while Hinduism affirms a substance based ontology if they are all virtually the same as that is what you seem to gather from reading the Upanishads ?

Those Pali verses you’ve given prove only one thing, that you have no idea what’s being discussed here.

Edit:

And Adi Shankara was no random scholar(not saying you implied this), he was a scholar of Vedanta, which includes your precious Upanishads, and he was a rather renowned scholar at that. You cannot get anymore Vedic than Adi Shankara and now having recounted this, I’m even more curious on which of his “ideas” were supposedly not vedic as you claim.

Reading over this thread again, and especially your reply, I have come to the conclusion that the above quote is very true, so in deference to my ignorance I will not contribute further.

Good luck with your journey.

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Please keep your responses courteous. Thank you

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Aww, Thank you, though I fear luck has yet to smile on me.

Wishing you the same !

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