The case for bare awareness?

[laurence]

Pleased to assist in any way I can, best wishes, Laurence

[Mat]

I’m sure the sutta quotations speak for themselves. A Self that isn’t felt in some situations and is felt again afterwards won’t convince me that there is no being.

[laurence]

Can you clarify what you have in mind?

[Mat]

Re the jhana see my post here:

The case for bare awareness? - #119 by Mat

@laurence

Nobody does Jhanas, nobody picks them up, puts them down etc. It simply happens

@laurence

Light registers through the eyeballs then, there is the recognition: I am.

In Jhana the sense of Self is lost.

[laurence]

I thought there is a teaching on dependent origination. When you say there is a ‘being’ what exactly are you referring to, the sense of self or, something else? With D.O. is there a teaching about a ‘being’ who meditates, reflects on the Dhamma etc. or, is there a ‘becoming’. Is there a traveller on the path? You know the relevant verse from the Visudhimagga that comes to mind? It’s OK if we don’t see things the same way. I do appreciate your Dhamma offerings based on a good working knowledge of the EBT’s. I am not sure just what it is that is problematic but there appears to be something that some Mitta’s find disquieting.

[Mat]

@laurence

just Samatha practice

That doesn’t lead to insight…

@laurence

there is a teaching on dependent origination

Insight.

@laurence

this is neither Vipassana nor Samatha.

is unlikely

[laurence]

@Mat

In Jhana the sense of Self is lost.

Yes - the turning on of the senses happens after jhana stops - is this what you are saying?

@Mat

just Samatha practice

That doesn’t lead to insight…

Did I say this, just samatha leads to insight?

@laurence

“Insight will be needed to achieve each of these stages, that is insight into
the meaning of (‘letting go’). The further one develops these stages, the more profound will be the
insight, and if you reach as far as Jhana then it will change your whole understanding. As it were,
Insight dances around Jhana and Jhana dances around Insight. - Ajahn Brahm

Insight may arise anywhere at anytime in any situation.

[laurence]

Ajahn Chah said: everything is teaching us!

[Mat]

Samatha doesn’t doesn’t lead to insight. Ajhan Brahm is denying there is such thing as samatha and insight (while you don’t seem to be), at least in the portions you are quoting.

@laurence

“Insight will be needed to achieve each of these stages, that is insight into
the meaning of (‘letting go’). The further one develops these stages, the more profound will be the
insight,

Going deeper into jhana isn’t going to lead to deeper insight. Insight is about the 5 aggregates, 6 senses, the DO, etc. Insight doesn’t just arise without right view understanding at the very least.

[laurence]

@Mat

Samatha doesn’t doesn’t lead to insight. Ajhan Brahm is denying there is such thing as samatha and insight (while you don’t seem to be), at least in the portions you are quoting.

What have I said about samatha as distinct from insight - you may need to grab a quote. I am not sure just what it is you believe I have said in this connection.

[laurence]

I thought I just asked you a question about D.O.? With regard to insight into the sense consciousnesses, and not-self, the period directly after jhana sheds light on these Dhamma teachings. There is the loss of subjectivity in jhana and, afterwards, the sense of self returns. This gives rise to insight into not-self. Just ask Ajahn Brahm and he will concur. Don’t take my word for it - find out for yourself.

[laurence]

Right view is essential - goodoh! Can you give me an example of wrong-view in what I have actually said - a quote maybe? Did I say, right view is of no relevance? Feel free to clarify the nature of right view. I usually find your offerings based on your Dhamma learning helpful and insightful. I am not sure if we are on different wavelengths - are we?

[laurence]

@Mat

“Insight will be needed to achieve each of these stages, that is insight into
the meaning of (‘letting go’). The further one develops these stages, the more profound will be the
insight,

This is not my comment, this is an Ajahn Brahm quote. Do you find it problematic?

[Martin]

@laurence

It’s the ability too completely relax and stay aware at the same time - it’s called letting go. Once this skill is available to us we are bound to be successful.

So is there a method here? How does one develop the skill?

[laurence]

@Martin

Once this skill is available to us we are bound to be successful.

There is discussion about the kind of skill involved earlier on, did you read it? Is there something in that discussion with ‘Karl’ that is problematic?

[laurence]

This is where we loop back to the teaching given by the Buddha to Bahiya. The skill or, the capacity to allow natural stillness to deepen without interference is related to sustained and unbroken bare awareness. It is a consequence of letting go - in the seeing just the seeing… In the thinking just the thinking. Until thinking stops by itself, then, silent awareness of the present moment, then the nimitta then, just the beautiful, then, limitless expansive formless perceptions then, ???

[Martin]

@laurence

The skill or, the capacity to allow natural stillness to deepen without interference is related to sustained and unbroken bare awareness. It is a consequence of letting go…

For me it’s paradoxical - the more I notice the continual movement of senses and mind, the more I notice an underlying stillness.

[laurence]

Beautiful - sadhu sadhu sadhu. The wonders never cease - thankyou for sharing.

[karl_lew]

@laurence

The wonders never cease

I really should go to sleep more often. Then I would have more to come back and read.

[Mat]

@laurence

There is the loss of subjectivity in jhana and, afterwards, the sense of self returns. This gives rise to insight into not-self.

Does falling asleep have the same effect? I find suppression of the sense of self in jhana and its subsequent return did not convince me of not-self where as watching sense doors arising and passing away did which is insight practice.

@laurence

With regard to insight into the sense consciousnesses, and not-self, the period directly after jhana sheds light on these Dhamma teachings.

Yes I agree, usually if the resultant samadhi is used to practice insight or vipassana!

@laurence

This is not my comment, this is an Ajahn Brahm quote.

I just wanted to air my views on the topic.

@laurence

Right view is essential

What do you say is ‘Right’?

@laurence

I am not sure if we are on different wavelengths - a

There maybe different views today but then that’s to be expected!

@laurence

It’s the ability too completely relax and stay aware at the same time - it’s called letting go.

You’re not letting go of anything. Its a ‘suppression’ for a period of time.