Oh, absolutely. I think there’s little to no chance that Jesus was interested in such things. Personally, I still think he was primarily an apocalyptic prophet.
3 Likes
Why is Paul orthodox? Didn’t Irenaeus denounce the gnostic Valentinus & was not Valentinus a disciple of Theudas who was a follower of Paul?
Maybe Paul was simply more clever is using language to disguise his Gnosticism?
Some have alleged Paul was a Gnostic.
[quote=“Deeele, post:42, topic:5845”]
Some have alleged Paul was a Gnostic.
[/quote]And Elaine Pagels has a book arguing to that effect. Critique of that perspective is largely irrelevant to our purposes here, as it would involve greatly elaborating and delving into Christian theology. Many of the teachings of Paul that Pagels identifies as “Gnostic” are things that orthodox Christians don’t have any problems with. I bet if Archimandrite Zacharias of Mount Athos were to pick up a copy of Pagels’ text arguing for a Gnostic Paul, and read it and believe it, he would consider himself also a Gnostic, as well as all of Christianity various forms of Gnosticism, but that is only my own conjecture.
When texts like The Gospel of Thomas are treated as Gnostic literature, or Pauline Epistles (where we find no mention of Archons, Aeons, Sophia, etc.), it blurs the boundaries of what “Gnosticism” actually is as a movement sufficiently so that it becomes functionally impossible to differentiate mainstream orthodox Christianity and Gnosticism.
The Pauline Epistles that Pagels calls into question toward the end of the book are also questioned in mainstream scholarship as being of dubious authenticity, so there is nothing new there, although the notion that they were forged with the intent purposes of having Paul espouse anti-Gnostic sentiment is a bit of a stretch.
Really?
In Matthew, there are teachings basically about heaven & hell determined by good works, such as separating the sheep from the goats. This appears to be strongly the moral Catholic doctrine.
Where as Paul, whom the Protestants most refer to, emphasised salvation through grace & faith, which is more evangelical or inclined to a transcendent bliss or non-attached liberation.
Example of language that appears certainly not physically literal but Gnostic:
But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires. 25 The Spirit has given us life; he must also control our lives. 26 We must not be proud or irritate one another or be jealous of one another.
Do not deceive yourselves; no one makes a fool of God. You will reap exactly what you plant. 8 If you plant in the field of your natural desires, from it you will gather the harvest of death; if you plant in the field of the Spirit, from the Spirit you will gather the harvest of eternal life.
I will boast only about the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; for by means of his cross the world is dead to me, and I am dead to the world. 15 It does not matter at all whether or not one is circumcised; what does matter is being a new creature.
By our baptism, then, we were buried with him and shared his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from death by the glorious power of the Father, so also we might live a new life.
And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross, in order that the power of the sinful self might be destroyed, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin.
Nor must you surrender any part of yourselves to sin to be used for wicked purposes. Instead, give yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life, and surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes.
What did you gain from doing the things that you are now ashamed of? The result of those things is death!
For when we lived according to our human nature, the sinful desires stirred up by the Law were at work in our bodies, and all we did ended in death.
For the law of the Spirit, which brings us life in union with Christ Jesus, has set me free from the law of sin and death.
[quote=“Deeele, post:44, topic:5845”]
Example of language that appears certainly not physically literal but Gnostic:
[/quote]But this is just regular old Christianity, where is the Gnosticism here? That Jesus conquers death and that you can too? That is standard Christianity, no Sophia or Archons or Demiurge required for that.
It seems obvious the ‘death’ here is not physical. If so, is this not Gnosticism? if not, what is it called?
It sounds a lot like Dhp 21 & MN 140:
Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.
And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?
[quote=“Deeele, post:46, topic:5845”]
It seems obvious the ‘death’ here is not physical. If so, is this not Gnosticism?
[/quote]Christians and Gnostics alike traditionally believe in a resurrection of the dead at the last judgement, orthodox Christians have this as a bodily resurrection (mirroring their interpretation of the resurrection of Jesus, as a bodily one), the Gnostic held various views conditioned by their cosmology, which equated materiality with sin (many Gnostics believed that Jesus never had a body at all, and was not a human being).
Which Christians? Today’s Christians or Paul? Paul seemed to not be referring to resurrection of the dead at the last judgement in the future but something happening in the here & now.
Like Paul in the quotes I made, who said he was dead to the world & the world was dead to him; how the natural nature is sinful.
those who deal in material goods, as though they were not fully occupied with them. For this world, as it is now, will not last much longer.
[quote=“Deeele, post:48, topic:5845”]
Paul seem to not be referring to resurrection of the dead at the last judgement but something happening in the here & now.
[/quote]Much like the first words of Jesus in the canonical gospel of Mark which was quoted on the other thread:[quote]Πεπλήρωται ὁ καιρὸς, καὶ ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ. μετανοεῖτε, καὶ πιστεύετε ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ.
Peplērōtai ho kairos, kai ēngiken hē basileia tou Theou. metanoeite, kai pisteuete en tō euangeliō.
Has-been-fulfilled the time, and has-drawn-near the kingdom of God; transform-the-noetic-faculty (nous) and know this good news.[/quote]This also seems to frame Heaven/salvation/“the Kingdom of God” as something that is not somewhere someone goes to when they die exclusively.
[details=metanoeite, “transform (your) nous”][quote]1. The Function of the Nous – the Noetic Faculty
According to the teaching of the holy Fathers, particularly St John of Damascus, who summed up the whole patristic tradition of Orthodox doctrine, the human soul has two faculties: the rational faculty and the noetic faculty. Through the rational faculty man related to the world with his senses, and through the noetic faculty he had communion and communication with God.
Because of the Fall, however, this noetic faculty, which is also called the nous, was darkened and became entangled with the rational faculty and the passions. According to the Orthodox tradition, if someone’s noetic faculty is not functioning correctly, in the sense that it is not directed towards God, has no experience of God and is identified with the rational faculty and the passions, he is a “psychopath” in the literal meaning of the word: his soul is suffering. He may not be schizophrenic, but if his noetic faculty is not working correctly, Orthodox tradition regards him as sick in soul.
For this noetic faculty, the nous, to work well, the heart must first be purified from passions and the nous illumined. It must rid itself of its grime and darkness. The sign that someone’s nous has been illumined is that he starts to pray without ceasing, by the action of the Holy Spirit. Unless a person’s heart is purified from passions and his nous illumined, his soul is regarded as sick. He may have good and moral thoughts; he may be physically and psychologically fit; he may practise external virtues, like the Pharisee in Christ’s parable; he may be psychologically balanced; but unless he discovers and sets right this noetic faculty so that it functions correctly, as in its natural state, his soul is sick, according to Father John Romanides of blessed memory.
- Consequences of the Dysfunction of the Nous
If this noetic faculty is not working correctly and our nous is darkened, it has many repercussions in our lives. We should look briefly at some of these consequences.
In this state man loses contact with God and forfeits his relationship with Him. Instead of being focused on God he becomes anthropocentric. His life revolves around himself. He idolises himself and worships himself.
Thus self-love develops, which the Fathers of the Church describe as unreasonable love for the body. From love of self evolve the passions of love of praise, self-indulgence and avarice. These impulses, which in their natural state should be directed towards God, are turned towards nature and other people. Man’s entire inner world falls into disorder. The fear of death emerges, and because of this fear people accumulate material possessions in order to confront death, which comes through illness and old age.
Also, when the nous is not working correctly it cannot direct either the soul or the body. In man’s natural state his soul is nourished through the nous by the uncreated grace of God, and this spiritual experience is transferred to the body, which is in good health and does not let the passions develop. Then the body in turn passes on God’s energy to irrational creation, the whole created world. When, however, the nous falls sick and is deadened, the soul, instead of being nourished by God, sucks the body dry, and the body sucks creation dry, producing the corresponding passions in soul and body but also ecological problems. The equilibrium of body and soul is completely overturned. Man’s body revolts against his soul, and he loses his spiritual freedom. We know that the nous is associated with free-will, so when the nous is blackened and darkened freedom is also distorted. Man is no longer really free, but acts according to the actions and desires of the passions.
This whole inner sickness has consequences for society too. Someone experiencing this sick and unbalanced state within himself becomes unbearable, antagonistic, individualistic and comes into conflict with others. It is impossible for him to be peaceful and sociable.
In this state, sick human beings also produce ecological problems. They do not really love nature. They cannot see the energy of God present within it or perceive the inner essences (logoi) of beings, as taught by the Fathers of the Church. Worst of all, they attempt to exploit the creation through their passions. Obviously excessive consumption creates the need for overproduction, and overproduction, achieved by hormones and various technical means, violates creation, with the result that ecological problems arise. No one can deal with ecological problems without Orthodox psychotherapy.
Thus, according to the Orthodox Tradition, illness starts with the darkening of the nous, then spreads to the soul, the body, society and the entire creation. Thus illness is not an individual event, but something personal, spiritual, social, ecological and universal. Healing cannot therefore be achieved by getting rid of individual states of guilt, but only by a complete transformation of man’s whole being.
[from the website of Metropolitan Demetrius of the Orthodox Church of America][/quote]The nous, or the noetic faculty, is very similar to citta in some “modern Buddhisms”, and in-and-of-iself is an interesting subject for research in Christian metaphysics.
When engaging in any comparatives, it is important to note that, from a Christian perspective, “God” is “Nirvana-equivalent”. God is framed as the uncreated. From a Buddhist perspective, there are numerous characteristics and qualities that this God possessing that disqualify Him from being synonymous with “the Uncreated”, but from a Christian perspective, such is the case. In addition to this, God is the source of all goodness, so directions for the noetic faculty to be “purified and oriented towards God” is synonymous with directions for the noetic faculty of the mind to be “purified and oriented towards goodness” as well.
Related note: just as here:[quote][Quoting @Deeele:]
It seems obvious the ‘death’ here is not physical.
[/quote], in the above, from Metropolitan Demetrius, “illness”, “the illness”, and death on account of that illness, are not “literal illness/bodily health”. What you talk about here:[quote][Quoting @Deeele:]
Which Christians? Today’s Christians or Paul? Paul seemed to not be referring to resurrection of the dead at the last judgement in the future but something happening in the here & now.[/quote]You are referring to what is called futurism in Biblical hermeneutics/interpretation. It is the belief that Revelations is a prediction of the future yet to come. This belief is popular among revivalist Protestants and is no older than ~1500AD. Traditionally, the events and prophecies of the Bible were believed to have all been fulfilled, and to refer to, Jesus’s incarnation, ministry, death, and conquering of death. This (older) position is called preterism or partial-preterism in contemporary religious studies.
[/details]
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the imminence of God’s presence, and the Kingdom of God breaking into the here-and-now are all features of the teachings of Jesus’ ministry. Salvation is believed to be available in the here-and-now (although that is using overly “Buddhisty” language), as well as experience of confirmation of the truth of Christianity (much like is claimed about Buddhism). It all depends on what you believe, in the end, I guess, since adherents of both faiths claim experiential confirmation in the here-and-now of the truths of their respective faiths.
Indeed. Which is why, imo, it is so difficult to work out what Christianity really was & why from the very beginning the Xtians were squabbling everywhere about truth & heresy.
thx for summation.
Dear Banthe, when I read this phrase a week ago I was not sure what you meant. Today having progressed reading Charles Freeman’s A new history of early christianity, I understand and aggree with you. He was anouncing the soon coming of the end of time. Because it didn’t happen when he was alive and in the decades following his death, the christian sects had to invent new meanings to Jesus’s “teachings”. It’s fascinating to see how Christianity was a progressively built-up theology with a lot of competing ideas until an emperor decided, that’s it, that’s what you are supposed to believe from now on.
1 Like
[quote=“alaber, post:52, topic:5845”]
Dear Banthe, when I read this phrase a week ago I was not sure what you meant. Today having progressed reading Charles Freeman’s A new history of early christianity, I understand and aggree with you. He was anouncing the soon coming of the end of time.
[/quote]Apocalypse also has the older meaning of “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. This is not to say the notion that Jesus taught of the “End of Time” is wrong per se, but that the reading is more intended to communicate a sense of a curtain being drawn back to reveal what is hidden. That is the self-narrative, that is, atheists (or “non-theists”) may be inclined to doubt as to what is “behind” this curtain though.