The connection between stream entry and noble eightfold path

[Green]

@Saurabh

Not believing but knowing perfectly…and right view is the view that whatever comes, it goes, whenever there is birth, there is death, whenever there is start, there is end. Not believing in karma but actually destroying many of those fetters/kleshas/defilements which give rise to thes karmas which bring suffering. Right effort as part of stream should amount to effort which will be of benefit to one and others and which will not bring suffering to one and others.

I think it is important to see the difference between mundane noble eightfold path and supramundane noble eightfold path (MN117). The mundane path is not really’ the stream’ refered to in SN55.5, i believe. The stream refers to the supramundane right view etc.
But the texts often do not mention this distinction in mundane and supra mundane noble eightfold path. So, we have to figure out what is meant.

@Saurabh

We as normal putthujana actually don’t realise what is impermanence, we just know it as intellectual understanding, just a speculative accepted conclusion which is usually part of our thinking/discussion. Only when one sees/realises impermanence directly, can actually attain stream-entry… That’s how it should be I suppose.

I think most people are aware of impermanence. They loose loved ones. They see the seasons changings every year. The weather. The decay around them. The impermanence of computer, telephone, flowers, of body, of mind etc etc.

But this realisation of impermanence only leads to distress, a feeling of being unprotected, unsafety, it is alarming. It makes anxious that we die, that loved ones die, that comfort is impermanent, jobs, beauty, status etc. I think people are very aware of this.

So, how can you explain that for some people the realisation of impermanence is really alarming and for another person it is the entree to peace? How does this work. How can the knowledge of impermanence be appeasing for one and for another person alarming?

[TeddyBear]

@Green

So, how can you explain that for some people the realisation of impermanence is really alarming and for another person it is the entree to peace? How does this work. How can the knowledge of impermanence be appeasing for one and for another person alarming

Because it is not the impermanence that the Buddha figured out/taught . This impermanence you are pointing out is visible /known even to anyone who who dont know dhamma. You dont need special dhamma knowledge to know that.

[Saurabh]

@Green

I think most people are aware of impermanence. They loose loved ones. They see the seasons changings every year. The weather. The decay around them. The impermanence of computer, telephone, flowers, of body, of mind etc etc.

Yes but most people (us) haven’t accepted impermanence as truth. We act as if impermanence can be escaped. We are attached to impermanence Because We lack wisdom. We don’t hate it in a sense that we don’t want to avoid that.
Say for example…one suffers Because of loss of loved ones…it’s because they haven’t purely accepted it as ultimate truth(or they can’t)…we know impermanence with stains(attachment), we don’t see it stainlessly hence we are not stream-enterers. We are puthujanas hence we don’t accept impermanence as ultimate truth, we just merely know that on the surface…or in other words this truth of impermanence doesn not penetrate us.

@Green

But this realisation of impermanence only leads to distress, a feeling of being unprotected, unsafety, it is alarming. It makes anxious that we die, that loved ones die, that comfort is impermanent, jobs, beauty, status etc.

Realisation of impermanence doesn’t lead to distress, it’s attachment(tanha/desire/want) to impermanent phenomenon(lack of wisdom) that leads to distress and all those things. Hence even though we are aware of impermanence we actually don’t want to part away with it or destroy it…that is the difference between ordinary knowledge and awareness of impermanence and realisation of impermanence as ultimate truth.

[Green]

@Saurabh

Hence even though we are aware of impermanence we actually don’t want to part away with it or destroy it…that is the difference between ordinary knowledge and awareness of impermanence and realisation of impermanence as ultimate truth.

I do not understand how you think realisation of impermanence as truth of life is eye-opening?

[Saurabh]

@Green

I do not understand how you think realisation of impermanence as truth of life is eye-opening?

It is eye-opening for one with wisdom and intention of ending suffering, we don’t seem to match that level of wisdom or intention to end suffering. I believe we realise it on surface only, not enough to penetrate it with the sword of wisdom, as we don’t even have sharp sword nor we want to use it that much. (I always see it as We lack the necessary intention and lack of necessary fulfillment of 10 perfections sir). That’s how I see it. That’s what explains to me the reason for(me) not being without many problems/sufferings.
What do you think?

[Green]

@Saurabh

What do you think?

Does impermanence lead to insight in 31 realms in samsara, in rebirth, in PS, in kamma, in all those existences? Does insight in impermanence mean one also sees that there is an escape, Nibbana? Does insight in impermanence automatically lead to strive for Nibbana?

Can one see the truth of impermanence and be a materialist? Or in other words, if one sees the truth of impermanence does one have always right views?

For me the eye-opening factor is seeing that any clinging is very normal but also really useless. It only contributes to suffering, pain, anxiety, heartache. It is a lost fight. I think this is the implication of seeing anicca. That is not really only about impermanence, but seeing anicca one sees that one is involved in an impossible mission to freeze reality, desiring to maintain it in a certain state, while that is naieve. Lost fight. Ignoble desires.

All constructed reality will deconstruct in time. Also mental constructed states as enthousiasm, optimisms, happiness and talents. Also things like strenght, succes, fame, health.
One sees that ones desires do not match with how reality is. There is mismatch. It is all very norman, human, but also a kind of naieve, those longings.

I also feel eye-opening is that you will not really change when you become more and more dispassionate and clinging weakens. It is not that you loose yourself. This is why the Buddha taught sakkaya ditthi as the first fetter. People have views like…so i am…passionate, quickly angry, loving, etc….that’s who i am…and while thinking so they have created an obstacle to let go. They are fettered by identityview.

It is impossibe to change the pure nature of mind. It is not that the nature of water really changes when you remove defilements. It only becomes more itself, pure water. i believe it is the same with mind and its adventitious defilments. We can only become more ourselves when defilements weaken and cease.

Ofcouse, in a sense it is huge change when defilements weaken and cease but one will not at all feel likeone has become a totally different person now. I can predict that! If one feels one has become a very different person, not even the first fetter, sakkya ditthi is abandoned.

[Saurabh]

@Green

? Does insight in impermanence automatically lead to strive for Nibbana?

I meant that, insight to impermanent doesn’t automatically lead to strive for nibbana, its seeing/experiencing nibbana which happens after seeing/experiencing impermanence…is what lead to natural strive for nibbana.

@Green

One sees that ones desires do not match with how reality is. There is mismatch. It is all very norman, human, but also a kind of naieve, those longings.

I don’t believe that what you said above is the only thing seen by one. After realising impermanence, then only one looks for permanence in reality, then only one takes nibbana as object/aim and when glimpse of nibbana is witnessed…then many defilements permanently break and then one enters the stream of dhamma/noble eightfold path. Now this person is bound for highest happiness irreversibly and cannot fall in lower realms. Now this person is not the “run of the mill” person who is sometimes mentioned in suttas who falls in hell after living long happy life in heaven.

Just seeing the truth of impermanence is not stream-entry, rather seeing/witnessing that which is permanence, for the first time, is what means stream-entry. All the 4 truths are witnessed even if it is for a moment. Thats how I see it.

[Green]

@Saurabh

Just seeing the truth of impermanence is not stream-entry, rather seeing/witnessing that which is permanence, for the first time, is what means stream-entry.

Maybe. Maybe it is not really about permanence but about actually tasting the unburdened whole pure nature of mind for the first time. Which fills one with a sense of completeness and wholeness. Not lacking anything. Not on fire, not burdened, not craving anything, without tendency, not in need for anything.

At that moment one really tastes that one can make an island of oneself, a refuge and there is a natural state of fulfillment, a state without hunger, without fear ,conceit, a rich state, whole, complete.

[Saurabh]

@Green

Maybe. Maybe it is not really about permanence but about actually tasting the unburdened whole pure nature of mind for the first time. Which fills one with a sense of completeness and wholeness. Not lacking anything. Not on fire, not burdened, not craving anything, without tendency, not in need for anything.

At that moment one really tastes that one can make an island of oneself, a refuge and there is a natural state of fulfillment, a state without hunger, without fear ,conceit, a rich state, whole, complete.

With my limited understanding, I am sure all these things
you’ve talked about are(in one way or another) characteristics of person who has realized stream-entry. Because whatever you are talking about is essentially just elaborating(more or less) destruction of suffering… realizing which actually is goal of one who wants to end suffering. Not an easy task though.

[Green]

Oke, clear @Saurabh . I once read that a sotapanna has grasped or seen the wider world view of the Buddha. I now think this makes sense. I believe it is certainly not only about seeing impermanence or rebirth or anatta or PS, but i think it is indeed about seeing the wider world view of the Buddha.

I doubt if entering the stream is really because of a life-changing mystical or esoteric experience which are by many seen as moments of true awakening. For a long time i thought it must be something like this. For some time now my understanding evolves in another direction.

At this moment i think the dhamma-eye is more like a vision one has developed over time, by listening, stuyding, reflecting, digesting the Dhamma and at a certain moment all falls in place, all comes together. It gradually, but still surely, leads to changes in ones make-up and life.

I know people do not like this, because it would be not deep enough. Well, oke, so be it.

People suggest that a stream-enterer has glimpsed Nibbana, or must have at least experienced the cessation of body and mind and seen the deathless, but this is not in EBT, if i am not wrong.

What does it even mean…glimpsing Nibbana? Is this having a real taste of Nibbana, a fortaste, a little taste, some taste (little pregnant?), or is it more like one sees the goal but it is still faraway and not in reach? Is it more like that one, based upon vision, sees the problem, one sees solution, one sees the path and goal, but has not arrived there yet. I now think it it more like that.

[stu]

@Green

What does it even mean…glimpsing Nibbana? Is this having a real taste of Nibbana, a fortaste, a little taste, some taste (little pregnant?), or is it more like one sees the goal but it is still faraway and not in reach? Is it more like that one, based upon vision, sees the problem, one sees solution, one sees the path and goal, but has not arrived there yet. I now think it it more like that.

There’s this simile that agrees with your suggestion (I think?) AN 7.15

But maybe seeing the shore for the first time is:

@Green

a life-changing mystical or esoteric experience

And in SN 12.68 we get the seeing water in a well but not yet having quenched their thirst yet simile

[Green]

Thanks @stu , nice sutta’s.

I think a lot of spiritual people believe that one must have a very special, extremely rare, kind of esoteric knowledge or experience to enter the stream.

Now, i tend to believe that this line of thinking becomes an obstacle for oneself. It suggests one will alwayes be clueless about Dhamma if one has not at least…and then comes an extremely rare knowledge or event or experience.

I have seen that people honour such people, people who have had special experiences. They are hounered is my experience, even if their behaviour is immoral, abnormal, weird, violent, disrespectful, corrupt. It has a special kind of attraction. It can never be special, esoteric and deep enough.

[Saurabh]

@Green

I doubt if entering the stream is really because of a life-changing mystical or esoteric experience which are by many seen as moments of true awakening. For a long time i thought it must be something like this. For some time now my understanding evolves in another direction.

Sir usually one does not change until something overwhelms him/her. This overwhelming can be positive or negative. In case of stream-entry it is positive. Imagine witnessing something so blissful that one just discards his evil tendencies. This is seen in our daily life as well. We are good because we see & witness goodness somewhere, may it be good persons, or may it be even just good stories. We are not completely good since birth, we become good during growing up because we witness good, kind, generous and selfless persons…the best example is our parents. The first compassionate activity towards us is done by none other than our parents.
What I am trying to say is that, we change innately only after getting overwhelmed by something which is good beyond anything. Stream-entry must be more or less like this. If it were only speculative understanding then it doesn’t have any changing potential. It is overwhelming experience, that’s the reason, person discard many evil tendencies naturally, in your words one becomes more himself/herself

@Green

At this moment i think the dhamma-eye is more like a vision one has developed over time, by listening, stuyding, reflecting, digesting the Dhamma and at a certain moment all falls in place, all comes together. It gradually, but still surely, leads to changes in ones make-up and life.

Yes it is a process but there is fruition(or certain stage) after attaining which, effort becomes our natural tendency. Just as we were struggling to write when we were children, but only till we achieved fruition of writing capability, yes it was something developed over time but there was time after which it became very easy to write for us. Now it’s a piece of cake for us. So in same way, there is fruition, after which being good becomes very natural, just as doing evil becomes naturally impossible. Also for example it is said hatred is won by love only and not by hatred, so hateful person becomes loving only after witnessing someone who is loving even in hateful circumstances. Another example is about learning any skill say driving. Yes it is a gradual process but still there is checkpoint (fruition) after which it becomes natural to drive.
So This change in innate being is only attained by witnessing something overwhelmingly good beyond anything good which we have ever seen/witnessed.

@Green

What does it even mean…glimpsing Nibbana? Is this having a real taste of Nibbana, a fortaste, a little taste, some taste (little pregnant?), or is it more like one sees the goal but it is still faraway and not in reach? Is it more like that one, based upon vision, sees the problem, one sees solution, one sees the path and goal, but has not arrived there yet. I now think it it more like that.

We can just imagine with textual knowledge sir. We cannot enough completely describe it exactly in words more than it is described in suttas. Perhaps suitable answer to these your questions is given by @stu in above linked sutta.

[mikenz66]

@Green

What does it even mean…glimpsing Nibbana? Is this having a real taste of Nibbana, a fortaste, a little taste, some taste (little pregnant?), or is it more like one sees the goal but it is still faraway and not in reach? Is it more like that one, based upon vision, sees the problem, one sees solution, one sees the path and goal, but has not arrived there yet. I now think it it more like that.

@stu

And in SN 12.68 we get the seeing water in a well but not yet having quenched their thirst yet simile

…
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration, I know and see that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.”

“Then Venerable Nārada is a perfected one, with defilements ended.”

“I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one. Suppose there was a well on a desert road that had neither rope nor bucket. Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched. They’d know that there was water, but they couldn’t physically touch it.

In the same way, I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one.”
…

[Green]

I have changed my opinion on this @Saurabh .

I now think stream entree is not a special overwhelming experience. It is a fruit of the efforts of hearing, learning, reflecting, meditating due to which unshakable vision has arisen in you. It is especially the result of really in a personal and practical sense digesting what one has heard, read, reflected upon, discussed, meditated upon.

It can take a very long time to digest Dhamma stuff. Often there are all kinds of inner resistances, doubts, questions, troubles to work trough, right? Like burping while digesting the Dhamma-food.
The burps can be very loud. It can be painful to body and mind, confusing, troubling. If this has comes to an end, due to investigation (not only faith) i believe that one enters the stream.

One has now a vision that is naturally sobering up, and leads naturally to the weakening of passion and defilements but one is not free of it. This vision is like a guide, the teacher. This vision is not at all overwhelming. It is sober and sobering.

If you look into the sutta’s you can also see that seeing things as they are is sobering and leads to dispassion and that leads to vimutti. The change Buddha describes is that of sobering up.
I believe it is not easy because who wants to be sober while our joy in life is not because of being sober.

Yes, i know, there are many spiritual people, and probably also buddhist, who feel this is all very superficial Dhamma. Oke, so be it. They want sexy esoteric experiences, at least: the cessation of body and mind, seeing the deathless, unity, seeing God, seeing the light of the universe, realising the unity of the atman and brahman, seeing ones face before birth, true self, seeing…

Some great thing! Extraordinary.

Well investigate for yourself if this is taught in EBT.

Investigate also if these overwhelming experiences are really opening a Path of Purification. Investigate it. See if these people which base themselves upon overwhelming experiences are really without lobha, dosa and moha. Look at their behaviour. Is there anger, greed, conceit?

[Green]

@Saurabh

This overwhelming…

You can compare this with vedana, with sensations/feelings. Pleasurable ones and painful ones are overwhelming. They get attention. We know when they arise and cease and we are interested in the causes and condition for how they arise and cease. They are objects of investigation.

But neutral feeling are like being not present, seemingly not arsing and not ceasing. They get no attention at all. They are so commen that they are unnoticed, inconspicuous. They are no object of contemplation. They are ignored. And because of that ignorance grows. You can compare this with the body. We feel good when we do not really notice a body. That is neutral feeling. It is unnoticed and we are not at all inclined to investigate neutral feeling, but we see them as our normal state, also as how we are. We do not relate at all to neutral feelings as something that also arises and ceases and because we take neutral feeling as granted, as our normal state, we are panicing when pain arises.

Those neutral feelings are like our wholeness, completeness and egolessness. This wholeness and completeness of ourselves, this truth of the end of suffering, is also unnoticed. It is not absent. Like neutral feeling it so dominant in our lifes that it does not stand out for us.

My plea , in stead of looking for something that is overwhelming, special and unique, we have to focus and see what is most ordinairy, most commen, most close and does not stand out at all.

[Saurabh]

@Green

One has now a vision that is naturally sobering up, and leads naturally to the weakening of passion and defilements but one is not free of it. This vision is like a guide, the teacher. This vision is not at all overwhelming. It is sober and sobering.

When I said ‘overwhelming’ I didn’t mean some flashy experience. I meant arising of wisdom of reality only and not some kind of esoteric experience sir. Obviously it must be including better wisdom and vision(as you say) about how we see everything. Otherwise how can such a person be with lessened lobha, dosa and moha. When such a vision(which you are referring to) gets a unchanging shape(which won’t change afterwards), but only will improve further(sobering in your words), we can surely call that a some kind of checkpoint!, isn’t it?, that’s what I was referring to when I said overwhelming experience. But yes it sounded like some kind of vedana(feeling) in literal meaning. The concept you are calling as ‘vision that is naturally sober and sobering up’ is also included when I said ‘overwhelming’. But I guess I couldn’t convey it that way. My bad.

[Green]

Sorry @Saurabh i misunderstood you. It is a loaded point for me.