The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

I have always understood that to mean it was setting the maximum numbers of rebirths that will happen in the human or heavenly world. Even a stream enterer doesn’t have the requirement that they return to the human world, so it doesn’t make sense that this would be a requirement for a once returner. But I’ll be on the lookout for examples of once returners that are reborn in the various heavenly realms.

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But it does say back to this world, i.e. the human world. Please do let us know what you find either way.

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Please quote a Sutta on these, don’t just assume things. These may lead you to wrong path and future difficulty to get into the path.

I have been reading your posts, they are very inconsistent with Sutta and teaching of Buddha. Please read, study, hear more for your own good.

Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahant knows the path. Of course, an Arahant has finished the path.

What people don’t understand is when the noble disciple gets right view, their mind need to be in jhana temporary. But sotapanna, sakadagami can’t maintain the jhana, because they still need to get rid of the hindrances to enter jhana (related to minor morality - edited due to ambiguity).

You can see this in many Sutta about before Buddha explain four noble truth to someone.

Quote MN56 Upali Sutta

And when he knew that Upāli’s mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, elated, and confident he explained the special teaching of the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. Just as a clean cloth rid of stains would properly absorb dye, in that very seat the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Upāli: “Everythings arise due to conditions and end because the conditions have ceased”

Then Upāli saw, attained, understood, and fathomed the Dhamma. He went beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and became self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instructions.

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I can’t bring the references at hand but from a talk by a monk I’m going to bring into the conversation that Sakadagami has jhana 1 or 2 or 3, but not jhana 4. Hence, they haven’t abandoned lust, hatred, & delusion completely but rather have weakened them through the jhana pleasure. Perhaps someone who knows the sutta reference for this can post it here.

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As for Sotapanna, maybe you want to consider SN55.40

Teaching I get from a monk is that:
There are two types of Sotapanna, i.e. diligent Sotapanna and negligent Sotapanna. Diligent Sotapanna is one that makes further effort to attain jhana after becoming Sotapanna. Negligent Sotapanna doesn’t.

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Bro I don’t think you need to delete anything, Myanmar is awesome and this should not be something to hide, there would be no meditation retreat in earth without Myanmar’s sayadaws but bro Joe is right you need to cite the source whether it’s sutta, commentaries or sub commentaries or Anna(others) if you don’t have source just say it’s your own opinion that would be fine

May you stay happy bro :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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@Punna

Good that you bring up this sutta.

That is 2 different type person once they enter the stream. Of course, if one can maintain the samadhi up to his death, he will never return to this world (even any jhana). Check AN9.36 Jhanasutta and AN4.123 Paṭhamanānākaraṇasutta. Of course, they need to have right view. Without right view, a common folk may go to woeful planes after his life there.

So it is important to get right view before meditation.

For details on how different noble disciple on morality, unification of mind, and wisdom, check AN 3.86 Paṭhamasikkhāsutta

Regarding hearsay, this person is an Arahant etc. One need to go and investigate. Good that if he is an Arahant. Because he can teach you at least up to stream entry in short time. Maybe in less than a day if your conditions are supported.

Buddha teaching is all about ehipassiko (check it and verify), not a hearsay. Not a commentaries and not a scholar.

Buddha teaching is perfect, pure, and complete. Check DN 29 and understand this sentence

svākhāto bhagavatā dhammo*
The Buddha teaching is clearly explained and concise.
—> no need any commentaries if you practice according to the prescribe path.

Finally buddha teaching is only related to 4 noble truths.

edited
Myth: only an arahant/buddha can teach people to become stream entry.
Sutta/vinaya: Any noble disciple can teach anyone who wants to hear and practice the path to be a stream enterer.

Ex: when Sariputta heard the teaching from Ven Assaji, he became Stream enterer. Then Sariputta taught Maha Moggallana, he also became stream enterer. Sariputta is only a stream enterer at that time.

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The sutta referenced above seems to hint that stream winners can attain to Jhanas and be reborn in the Brahma realms.

To categorically say that stream winners cannot be found in the Brahma realms seems illogical as it implies that attaining to the fruit of stream entry makes one unable to attain to Jhanas. Whereas normal ordinary worldling can attain to Jhanas. Makes no sense. If anything, it should be much easier to attain to Jhanas for the stream winner as doubt is not an issue out of the 5 hindrances. Less hindrances to attain the Jhanas.

Same logic applies to once returner. I see the statement of coming back to this world, the “this world” includes the sensual desire realm as a whole, not just human realms.

Why have lust for stuffs when one sees Nibbana? Cause one has not tasted Nibbana with the body yet.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.68/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one. Suppose there was a well on a desert road that had neither rope nor bucket. Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched. They’d know that there was water, but they couldn’t physically touch it.

In the same way, I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one.”

Without the taste of the ultimate bliss, it’s possible for the mind to still seek happiness from sensual pleasures.

Even those who attained to Jhanas, if they become slack, lazy to meditate, not diligent in meditation, the source of joy and happiness or bliss from Jhanas is not there, the mind would be seeking from other sources. Hence that’s why people can lose Jhanas.

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If you look carefully,

“Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. 4th and 5th fetters.

They have become non returner with 1st jhana. Jhana developments need time, it is not only by 1/2 seating suddenly some reach 4th jhana. It is a practice again and again (hundred/thousand/ million depending on person) to develop/purify your minds.

Another myth: non returner only goes to pure abodes.
Sutta: that is not the case. Ven Tissa reborn into brahma world 1st jhana. He was a non returner as well.

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Could be fetters, could be temporary hindrances abandoning like any educated (in the dhamma) worldling can do.

It’s not explicitly stated that desire and aversion are the fetters version. Unlike the first 3.

Also, the anagami should be already mastered the Jhanas, then attain to the fruit, not the other way round surely.

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Well I guess you can call it as Jhananagami, eventhough this naming doesn’t exist in Sutta. But the last sentence of the sutta is similar to non-returner.

If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.

@Joe.C: Hello, Joe. Thank you for your reply which has enabled me to have Dhamma discussion - one blessing as said in Mangala Sutta. I think AN3.86 you cited is the sutta I was referring to in my earlier post about Sakadagami having jhana 1 or 2 or 3. Thank you also for introducing me to AN9.36 Jhanasutta. It seems to me to describe one who develops samatha first and then vipassana, one of four ways described in AN4.170 to reach awakening, namely (1) samatha first and then vipassana, (2) vipassana first and then samatha, (3) samatha and vipassana at the same time, and (4) how one’s restless mind will eventually be stilled.

These four ways should be covered by:
"Sir, the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.” - SN55.5

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The sutta referenced above seems to hint that stream winners can attain to Jhanas and be reborn in the Brahma realms.

I’m not saying that sotāpannas can’t obtain the Jhānas, but when they do they are no longer a sotāpanna. Another way of saying it would be that when someone becomes a sotāpanna they don’t have any Jhāna. In other words, Jhāna isn’t required to become a sotāpanna. The sutta you linked to seems to support this

AN 3.94
After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.

In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”

Notice here that they become a sotāpanna before going on to develop the Jhānas later. So, when they became a sotāpanna they did not have any Jhāna. Then, when they do attain Jhāna they become a non-returner.

"If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”

To categorically say that stream winners cannot be found in the Brahma realms seems illogical as it implies that attaining to the fruit of stream entry makes one unable to attain to Jhanas. Whereas normal ordinary worldling can attain to Jhanas. Makes no sense. If anything, it should be much easier to attain to Jhanas for the stream winner as doubt is not an issue out of the 5 hindrances. Less hindrances to attain the Jhanas.

I don’t see how that follows? It would mean that to become a sotāpanna Jhāna isn’t necessary, and so when they die they never go into the Brahma worlds or higher. When they do obtain the Jhānas, then they become a non-returner. For laypeople who obtain the Jhānas, this would imply that they were non-returners. It would be easier for a sotāpanna to obtain the Jhānas, yes, but in becoming a sotāpanna in the first place Jhāna doesn’t seem necessary.

“I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one. Suppose there was a well on a desert road that had neither rope nor bucket. Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched. They’d know that there was water, but they couldn’t physically touch it.

In the same way, I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one.”

Without the taste of the ultimate bliss, it’s possible for the mind to still seek happiness from sensual pleasures.

Well we don’t know what kind of level of awakening the venerable had. He could be a non-returner, and so was without sensual desire. MN 14 is quite explicit in saying that the experience of Jhāna is what leads to the abandoning of sensual desire. I suppose the pleasures of the senses just don’t compare anymore once you have experienced this. Since the sotāpanna has sensual desire as a fetter and a non-returner does not, this suggests to me that what differentiates the two is the attainment of Jhāna. In other words a sotāpanna becomes a non-returner by finally attaining Jhāna.

Same logic applies to once returner. I see the statement of coming back to this world, the “this world” includes the sensual desire realm as a whole, not just human realms.

“This world” suggests to me it is this human world that the once-returner returns to, which would mean they have virtue but no development of the mind or wisdom.

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This is common among those who reject the commentaries and abhidhamma.

@Punna
Good that you know the 4 factors of stream entry SN 55.5. Also read other SN55, they are good source to understand the path. Im not sure where you are at your practice. But here is the generic formula.

Be a stream enterer first, stream enterer has right view. 2 conditions for right view to arise, check MN43.

  1. The words of another (ideally noble disciple) and
  2. focus attention to the source (when hearing the teaching), mind (mano) - yoniso manasikara

Remember right view precedes everything. Try to hear Dhamma especially 4 nikayas, hearing dhamma with focus attention is also considered meditation for Buddha. Most people become stream enterer because of hearing the dhamma. Do you know that Sariputta became Arahant by hearing the dhamma as well (mn74)?

Regarding Samantha or Vipassana, you are right. If you progress well in your sitting meditation, always remember to refer to sutta.

Good meditation is a meditation that bring your mind to within, and separate from senses, make you happy, relax, calm, no stress, no fear, etc.

For understanding of purification of morality, please check SN 55.7 and MN 61. Morality that Buddha taught is based autonomous morality (come from within). It is based on reflection (MN61) and happiness for yourself and others (SN55.7). So the morality is not based on kamma vipaka result.

One do good because one feel good to do good for oneself and others (based on selfless - metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha).

One last thing, I leave you to understand the MN2.

Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones…

But take an educated noble disciple who has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They understand to which things they should pay attention and to which things they should not pay attention. So they pay attention to things they should and don’t pay attention to things they shouldn’t.

To be a noble disciple, one need to see, know directly the other noble disciple. Not based on hearsay.

If you have question, please let me know.

Also may I know who your teacher is? PM if possible.

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That is my initial thoughts as well.

You can also find non returner on AN 4.123 for other brahma world.

But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life.

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There is then my initial problem. How is it possible for a sotāpanna to know and “see” nibbāna and have the 3 contacts (emptiness, nothingness and signless) which requires a high level of equanimity without passing through the 4th Jhāna?

Ah… you are confusing with a stream enterer and high level Anagami.

As I mentioned before, When one become stream enterer, their mind temporary in jhana. But they can’t maintain it, probably dont know they are in Jhana. They see a Nibbana and the path, otherwise they will not be independent of teacher.

For Signless, emptiness, and undirected contacts (not nothingness), these are only for non returner who has gone to Sanna-vedayita-nirodha (“jhana 9” stopping mind). Then come back with residues. Their mind will go to one of these as explained in MN 44 or sn41.6.

You make an interesting argument in this thread.

I’m not too familiar with the ideas of emptiness, nothingness and signless concentrations (haven’t thought too much about these when I’ve encountered these terms in the suttas). What would be the main suttas that lay out this association between these concentrations and any experience of Nibbana?

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I’m not too familiar with the ideas of emptiness, nothingness and signless concentrations (haven’t thought too much about these when I’ve encountered these terms in the suttas). What would be the main suttas that lay out this association between these concentrations and any experience of Nibbana?

An example would be this sutta

At one time Venerable Godatta was staying near Macchikāsaṇḍa in the Wild Mango Grove. Then Citta the householder went up to Venerable Godatta, bowed, and sat down to one side. Godatta said to him:

“Householder, the limitless release of the heart, and the release of the heart through nothingness, and the release of the heart through emptiness, and the signless release of the heart: do these things differ in both meaning and phrasing? Or do they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?”

“Sir, there is a way in which these things differ in both meaning and phrasing. But there’s also a way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.

And what’s the way in which these things differ in both meaning and phrasing?

It’s when a mendicant meditates spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. They meditate spreading a heart full of compassion … They meditate spreading a heart full of rejoicing … They meditate spreading a heart full of equanimity to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of equanimity to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. This is called the limitless release of the heart.

And what is the release of the heart through nothingness? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the release of the heart through nothingness.

And what is the release of the heart through emptiness? It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this: ‘This is empty of a self or what belongs to a self.’ This is called the release of the heart through emptiness.

And what is the signless heart’s release? It’s when a mendicant, not focusing on any signs, enters and remains in the signless immersion of the heart. This is called the signless release of the heart.

This is the way in which these things differ in both meaning and phrasing.

And what’s the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of limitless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed is something, hate is something, and delusion is something. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of release of the heart through nothingness. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of signless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

This is the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.”

“You’re fortunate, householder, so very fortunate, to traverse the Buddha’s deep teachings with the eye of wisdom.”

SN 41.7: Godattasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net)

Here it is said that the 4 brahmavihārās, Nothingness, Signless and Emptiness concentrations are all ways to nibbāna. In later scholastic Buddhism, both southern and northern, they are said to be the gateways into nibbāna. If anyone awakens, it is via these contemplations. The sutta then goes on to show how although they differ in phrasing, they are the same in meaning. Notice that emptiness is excluded from this. Only the 4 brahmavihārās, Nothingness and Signless are explicitly mentioned. All of them are said to be without Greed, Hatred and Delusion. Since Emptiness is missing, we can read this as meaning that Emptiness is the absence of Greed, Hatred and Delusion. We also know that Emptiness relates to the absence of self. To see the absence of self then is to be free from Greed, Hatred and Delusion. Emptiness then includes the 4 brahmavihārās, Nothingness and Signless within it. To talk then ultimately of the emptiness of self is to also talk of the emptiness of signs (we could say the emptiness of dhammas here), how there is no-thing (or perhaps no-thing worth having?) and so how there can be boundless love, compassion, joy and equanimity. In other suttas it is said that when emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling there will be either the emptiness contact, intentionless contact or signless contact and upon these contacts one becomes an Arahant or, if they cling to it, a non-returner. Ven. Yin Shun in his book on emptiness showed that the original formulation was Emptiness, Nothingness and Signless with Nothingness being replaced by “intentionless” later on, but essentially retaining the same meaning. If there is no-thing or no-thing to have, there won’t be any intention.

Now, with all that in mind the suttas (and especially MN 106) make it clear that in order to have Emptiness, Nothingness or Signless meditation there needs to be a high level of equanimity. How this can be achieved without attaining the 4th Jhāna is difficult to imagine, yet the suttas I’ve discussed above suggest that a stream-enterer does not have Jhāna. We could say that they do have Jhāna, and so have passed through all 4 of them and so have the required equanimity, but if they do have said highly developed equanimity and do know Emptiness, Nothingness and Signless why then do they still desire trivial things such as entertainment? This is even more of a problem when we consider that MN 14 explicitly states that simply attaining the Jhānas is enough to do away with lust for sensual pleasures.

It should be noted that MN 106 does not talk about the signless. Instead it talks about neither-perception nor non-perception. Ven Yin Shun however has suggested that in some contexts the signless could simply mean neither-perception nor non-perception. This would make sense, since in both attainments no sign is being cognised.

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