Dear Ayya, Thank you so much for sharing the lovely and inspiring book Let the Light Shine
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I wrote my response quite quickly as it was dāna time. Later a question occurred to me.
Why did you both (Ayyas @vimalanyani and @Adhimutti ) and other bhikkhunis still choose to take full ordination, despite knowing about this?
I am not asking this as a criticism in any way. More looking to get a broader perspective to address my own doubts.
Thank you kindly
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Well, in brief, full ordination is hugely important - and is enormous step forward in terms of quality of monastic life and overall empowerment and independence from other forms of ordination. So, if one is going to be a monastic woman, for sure it is best to be a bhikkhuni (although, maybe not in Myanmar, and in some other Asian contexts - as it can be too dangerous or unsupported. But, as a westerner - bhikkhuni ordination is the only way forward. We are actually largely independent as bhikkhunis, and can set up our own communities - in a way 10 preceptors etc were not successful in doing - overall)
Also we are in line with the Buddha’s original vision and what he set out for us, and connected with the international bhikkhuni Sangha - which is inspiring.
I remember a decade or more ago, being part of the movement establishing full ordination in Australia and the States, and being very involved in the early days in helping get things going at Santi and Aranya Bodhi. The landscape has really transformed an incredible amount since then.
There is still a long way to go, though, in creating environments where people have the time, space and support to go really deeply with the practice, and for Bhikkhunī meditation masters and scholars and leaders to develop (maybe at Dhammasara some of these conditions are in place, you certainly have a high quality group and good conditions - I’m just not so in touch with the scene there).
If we look at ancient Sri Lanka where there were bhikkhuni forest monasteries and great bhikkhuni teachers travelling and teaching internationally - we see the power and the potential.
Also, in places like India bhikkhuni ordination and proper training and support for the Bhikkhunis there will bring enormous freedom and liberation for the ladies there.
We have in this thread being focused on the difficulties. However, there is tremendous inspiration and support being full members of the Sangha. Bhikkhuni form compared to other forms is much much more powerful.
One especially feels the power when with bhikkhuni masters from China or Taiwan or Korea. They are fully empowered within themselves, well educated and confident, strong leaders and profound practitioners.
Also, when I ordained I wasn’t fully aware of the degree to which sexism and misogyny pervades the landscape and the texts - or how difficult things would be to change. I tend to be resourceful, visionary and optimistic- which is a blessing and a curse. I thought somewhere I would somehow find a good place for practice, with time, space and support - to lay down the necessary foundations (I guess I was right in the end - I have been very very lucky somehow)
Whether I would have gone down the monastic route 15 years ago, knowing what I know now - I’m not sure. My main interest is in the practice - not in the form itself. I feel the bhikkhuni form needs to be a vehicle for the realization of Nibbana. And for this, we need somehow to create the kinds of conditions the bhikkhus have - that kind of space, freedom and time.
I can’t say I regret this path, I have met incredible people, have been blessed with amazing friends and generosity and support, and have amazing teachers also. So, it’s not all dark. Also, seeing young clear-eyed, dedicated, confident and articulate monastics like yourself coming up is very encouraging.
I do feel there is a way forward, and as bhikkhunis I hope we can work together, support each other, and work with supportive bhikkhus. Part of this way forward need to be grounded in a clear-eyed seeing and full acknowledgement and recognition of the reality of the difficulties. Only then can we be motivated to make the changes and come up with the creative solutions necessary.
What arose in response to your question ~
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Because the Buddha is my teacher and this is the path that he outlined for women. So I had faith in him and went ahead.
Samaneri ordination was originally intended for girls, not for adult women (sāmaṇera = small sāmaṇa / sāmaṇerī = small sāmaṇī), and in many monasteries, they are still treated somewhat like children, even if they have been ordained for decades. And the situation is even worse for silmatas, mae chis, sayalays etc. who are usually not even considered ordained.
Only if you have full ordination can you be a full member of the sangha. You can support other monastics in very different ways and serve both the sangha and the lay community much more fully. You get a say in decision making of your monastery, which I think is vital for your long-term mental well-being. If decisions that directly affect your life and ability to practice are constantly taken without your input, you feel very disempowered and resentment grows. It can also make you feel like a child, and after a while, you really take on the child role and stop taking responsibility for your life. If you have full ordination, you can also participate in formal acts of the sangha, which is vital for the functioning of the monastic community, and you can ordain and train the next generation of monastics. Without fully ordained people the sangha would die out quickly.
There’s a lot of discrimination against bhikkhunis but there’s a lot of discrimination against other forms of ordination for women too. Unless you want to spend your life in Myanmar, you are nearly always better off having full ordination.
And I agree with everything that Ayya @Adhimutti has so beautifully written. 
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Question : why do you think female need bhikkhus or monks supports in the process of ordination and for the reviving of the bhikkhuni tradition and not a independent stand alone sangha and even if bhikkhuni tradition didnt died out ?
I think to fully flesh out this question, it would need its own topic. In brief, traditionally it’s been held that bhikkhus are required for the ordination of bhikkhunīs, per the written texts (though I am personally interested in examining the possibility of bhikkhunī-only ordination).
You might find a discussion in these two topics more fruitful:
Links
Autonomy of the Bhikkhūnī Sangha-Aj. Hiriko
“Separate but Equal”, the ideal doctrine for Monastics?
But what Ven. @vimalanyani points out is that it’s even more than just about ordination—it’s about recognition and equal status. In an ideal world, it wouldn’t matter what the men think. But in the world we have now, often Buddhists look to the bhikkhus for guidance and direction, and when they see indifference, disrespect, or downright hostility towards women—then consciously and unconsciously it sends the message that that’s the proper way of things.
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@vimalanyani I’m interested to hear how Theravada women (either still lay or not yet fully ordained) seeking full ordination find paths forward. I’m in California and if I remember correctly some of the nuns here got full ordination from monks outside of the Thai forest tradition. Is there now a way within that tradition? What are the options?
Has any group of Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunis, scholars, etc. done any serious work to actually rewrite those parts which perhaps should never have been written in the Vinaya in the first place? Is that just way too heretical?
I think that pretty much all bhikkhunis get full ordination from monks outside the Thai forest tradition, except for those living in Australia who usually get ordination with groups of monks related to Ajahn Brahm (who depending on your definition may or may not be in the Thai forest tradition.) In other parts of the world, I know of individual monks of the Thai forest tradition that have participated in bhikkhuni ordination but the vast majority of monks are Sri Lankan.
I’m not familiar with the situation inside Thailand and I’m not sure how Thai bhikkhunis ordain. I’ve heard that some of them also go to Sri Lanka for ordination.
Women interested in ordination need to find a bhikkhuni monastery that accepts them into their community. If they fulfill all the requirements for ordination, the senior bhikkhunis there will ususally make the arrangements.
I don’t think you can actually “rewrite” an ancient canonical text. What you can do is do the research and outline which are the late parts, and then try to restore earlier practices. But that should be done separately from the canonical vinaya in an independent collection of (modern) texts.
For example: We can look at other early texts, such as the Therigatha, which show that the lifestyle of early nuns was significantly different from what is mandated in the vinaya. We can do comparative studies of the vinaya texts in the various Buddhist schools. We can look at different textual layers that were written at different points in time and see how things developed to become more discriminatory towards women. Etc. (Lots of work in this area has been done already.)
From there, we can try to go back to earlier practices when things were more equal in the sangha. After all, the Buddha made it very clear that it’s not allowed to add more rules after his passing. So if it can be shown that things were added on later, it is reasonable to reject them and try to restore earlier versions.
But yes, such things would certainly be considered heretical by large parts of the sangha.
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Examining the history of the Buddhist schools, we find that Buddhism adapted itself to the customs of the various civilisations it spread to. For instance, in China, the monks were allowed to work the land to feed themselves as Chinese culture doesn’t take kindly to feeding idle hands.
Perhaps, what we are currently seeing are the birth pangs of an authentic Western Buddhism. Viewed in that light, it is but inevitable that Buddhism will once again adapt itself to reflect the western principles of equality of genders, alongside other ideas such as the focus on rationality, logic etc. I personally think that such a reformation would represent a quintessential genuine Buddhism.
All of us, both ordained and laity, really need to have deep meaningful conversations about these things, don’t we?
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I never new this. Could you please provide some more information or links on this. I’m very interested in the monasticism of ancient Sri Lanka.
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I remember once a senior bhikkhunī said simply, “The Buddha ordained women.” That’s the true conservative, orthodox, and traditional position 
This is certainly coming at a time when Western Buddhist monasticism is forming its own identity, but I am hesitant to look at the issue as Western vs. Eastern.
After all, certain Western-led and Western-founded were quite content to jump on the patriarchal bandwagon, and the Catholic Vatican—sitting at the so-called cradle of Western civilization—is not exactly the champion of human rights. Equality isn’t really a Western principle, any more than gravity is. And actually many Westerners do not believe in the equality of genders or rationality or logic, and historically have also not believed in those things.
(For more on this, I highly recommend the book Forest Recollections by Kamala Tiyavanich, which, in part, outlines how the Thai Sangha we know today was very much influenced by European colonialism and the Western aspirations of the Thai State at the time.)
Unfortunately no one region or people has a monopoly on greed, hatred, and delusion 
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Please see this thread Venerable.
Ven @Suvira posted some interesting research that you may find useful…
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Placing a link here, to a presentation from the Bhikkhunis at Newbury Buddhist Monastery in Victoria Australia last night . Enjoy 
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Dear Bhante,
Yes, but it may take some time. I learned a lot about this while attending on Ayya Tathaaloka in Sri Lanka - we visited ancient bhikkhuni monasteries and sacred sites. Including the Anula Devi Cetiya and the Sanghamitra cetiya. These places had such special energy and ambiance. So inspiring! Though little known even to our Sri Lankan devout lady friends.
If you were to look through Ayya Tathaaloka’s FB posts - this might be the best source for general information about this.
I would love to see bhikkhuni forest monasteries re-established in Sri Lanka.
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@vimalanyani, thank you for starting this conversation. It made me terribly sad to read your post, so much so that I just didn’t want to even think about it as I just felt a bit hopeless. But, now I wonder if @Brahmali may have been lying in wait for such an invitation!
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! To both of you.
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Blockquote[quote=“Adhimutti, post:59, topic:18771”]
would love to see bhikkhuni forest monasteries re-established in Sri Lanka.
[/quote]
Absolutely, due to popular knowledge of vinaya laxity in the Sri Lankan Sangha. Lay people are becoming more and more disillusioned and critic. I was one of them . But forest monks are a constant source of inspiration and faith, that shows the Dhamma is still alive. A forest bhikkhuni tradition will be a major win for women and the sasana as a whole.
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Thank you so much, Ven. @vimalanyani for expressing the trials and tribulations we have to go through as female monastics. May we all be free from suffering and swiftly attain awakening!
My experience however has been more along the ‘what is wrong with these people, why are they treating me like I am an inferior being’?” 
So while I haven’t gotten awakened yet, since I put robes on I got ‘woke’ to the truth that sexism is alive and well everywhere. It stings more as a female monk because we have no place to hide anymore: the line between Dhamma and ADhamma can get very blurry and sacred scripture is often used to put us faithful women into submission.
This is no different in Buddhism than it is in every single other religion that I am aware of. So I am afraid the root of the problem here is not Buddhism or the Vinaya, but rather unquestioned patriarchy and our internalization of it. A clear example of this is in this thread: amongst so many liberal woke practitioners not one challenged @Ehipassiko claim that women are matter-of-factly inferior to begin with.
[quote=“Ehipassiko, post:21, topic:18771”]
Don’t the suttas say that being born as a woman is worse karma than being born a man? Clearly that’s true. Biologically we have it a bit harder with all the childbearing stuff. And not only throughout human history, but in nature also females are subordinate to males in most species. [/quote]
As they say, silence is complicity. So let’s be clear here:
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No, the Buddha never said that a female birth is an inferior rebirth. Those are just assumptions that unenlightened people have made in the past 2 millennia.
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No, women don’t intrinsically have it harder than men. Childbearing is not just some painful experience, it’s also for example an incredible and powerful state of being which creates conditions for generating the type of unconditional love described in the Metta Sutta. It’s very good kamma to have a human rebirth: whether it’s female, male, trans, non binary… it does not matter. The body is just the body.
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No, females have not been subordinate to males throughout history. Just mostly in the patriarchal past 4000 years or so, which is nothing in the large scheme of history. For more information you can read Gerda Lerner’s “The Creation of Patriarchy”: PATRIARCHY: IS IT INVENTION OR INEVITABLE? - The New York Times
All conditioned things are impermanent, so why would patriarchy be any different? It is our delusion that gives it the attributes of permanent to the extent that we even project this ‘natural patriarchal state’ on the animal world, creating distorted assumptions of other mammals, like in the case of lions: Where’s Simba’s mom? In real life, female lions run the pride.
As women, before we get into any efforts of practicing non-self (…or telling other oppressed folks that there is no self that is being oppressed), our job should be first and foremost to question our underlying assumptions. Where are we getting these ideas from? Why do we think we are inferior? Who taught us to hate yourselves?
Ideas, thoughts and emotions don’t belong to us, they are dependently arisen phenomena. Whatever conditions we are immersed in, those will affect the way we think and act on the path. It is for this reason that the Buddha advised Ananda that spiritual friends are the entire path. If we are surrounded by people who don’t cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path, it will be very difficult for us to nourish wholesome qualities. In the same way if we are immersed in an oppressive system, we will inevitably absorb such ideology, and act in accordance with it. That’s exactly what you see described in Venerable @Adhimutti accounts of the feeling of female inferiority and male superiority in practitioners, no matter how accomplished in meditation they both might be.
This is problematic not only for women, but for everyone in Buddhism. Not only because it’s a human rights issue, but because first and foremost it’s a huge obstacle in the path. Meditation represents only three factors of the path at best, and as the current system puts people in the gendered position of oppressor or oppressed, it hinders each one of us from fully acting skillfully through body, speech, and mind in all occasions. This is a huge issue in the development of virtue.
While I appreciate and support the efforts of Ajahn @Brahmali on @Vinaya matters, I personally don’t think the Vinaya is the problem per se, but how and why we decide to uphold each precept. Because the latter this stems from delusion within our communities and from our own mind.
I think a lot of times we are asking the wrong questions. For example, in an ideal world having a senior Bhikkhu teach Bhikkhunis would be considered a blessing (who would not want to have Ven. Bodhi share Dhamma with them on a regular basis?), so the ones who are missing out are the poor Bhikkhus who don’t have the same opportunity with Bhikkhunis. Being admonished in this Dhamma and discipline is not a punishment but an opportunity for growth, something to be looking forward to. So in this light, preventing Bhikkhunis from admonishing Bhikkhus is detrimental to the Bhikkhu Sangha, isn’t it?
I personally would like to see a conversation on how patriarchy is in opposition to core elements of the Dhamma and a hindrance first and foremost to the the practice of awakening of the Bhikkhu Sangha.
And what are the three kinds of conceit that are to be abandoned? (4) Conceit, (5) the inferiority complex, and (6) arrogance: these are the three kinds of conceit that are to be abandoned.
The Buddha AN 6.106
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Dear Ayya Soma, I’m sorry I did not explain myself better but hope you can consider that this is not what I’m trying to say.