The Dhamma of Getting Beat Up Downtown (last Sunday)

Not trying to be cheeky here; are innate resilience and the cultivated mind the same thing?
I mean it is a bit against the stream but could a sentient being have previously cultivated and in this life recieved the fruits in the form of the capacity to endure whilst maintaining a bright mind? ( thats what i think resilience is today, im not going to pop psychology today- the discombobulation that their definitions cause this mind sure lowers my resilience)

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No cheekiness taken :slightly_smiling_face:
From a Buddhist point of view of karma and its fruition this would absolutely make sense. I’m also not very fond of pop psychology but I am trying to align scientific research with Buddhist teachings. What springs to my mind is that epigenetics revolutionized our understanding in that trauma can ‘write itself’ into DNA. So why shouldn’t wholesome activieties (mental, bodily) also. The mode of operation is complex and can have an effect on the next generation(s).

completely off-topic:
discombobulation

Never heard this one. It wasn’t even listed in my standard dictionary. Learned a new word :smiley:

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2 posts were merged into an existing topic: Buddhism and Quantum physics

The Simile of the Saw uses the simile as a teaching device in the context of a verbal dispute in the community. There was no actual violence. The instructions were aimed at managing verbal harms.

In one scenario of violence the Buddha did not teach metta or karuna. Just equanimity:

Now at that time someone threw a stone that hit Aṅgulimāla, someone else threw a stick, and someone else threw gravel…
Then Aṅgulimāla—with cracked head, bleeding, his bowl broken, and his outer robe torn—went to the Buddha…
The Buddha ..said to him, “Endure it, brahmin! Endure it, brahmin! ” paraphrased from MN86

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None of the discussions or teachers I’ve engaged with treated the simile of the saw as just a metaphor, but always literally, that is, even if low-down bandits actually cut you, you should train with metta and compassion. This being so, any verbal dispute looks like a child’s play by comparison indeed. :slight_smile:

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The same Venerable has a video on it here:

The B.A.G.E.L and the D.O.N.U.T is brilliant from a didactical standpoint! :smiley:
I’m not sure how to master the former it in very dreadful situations but more as a guiding principle…

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Yes its a great mnemonic:

It might be useful to keep in mind the context and purpose of the sutta. It seems to address how sangha members would criticize, react to criticism and get into entrenched conflicts.

The analysis of the five ways others criticize appears primarily intended as a reflection tool, for calmly recognizing how critical words are being spoken by others to us. That is we are on the receiving end. Criticism directed at us may be true and well spoken. Or false and harshly spoken etc. Either way when we are on the receiving end we can react badly, just like Venerable Phagguna of the Top-Knot did. The analysis by five ways helps prevent a retort under pressure. Not retorting prevents escalation. In a community this is highly skillful.

“In the same way, there are these five ways in which others might criticize you. Their speech may be

  • timely or untimely,
  • true or false,
  • gentle or harsh,
  • beneficial or harmful,
  • from a heart of love or from secret hate.
    When others criticize you, they may do so in any of these ways.

The advice given for how we should reply under criticism is different:

If that happens, you should train like this:
‘Our minds will not degenerate. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of sympathy, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart like a catskin bag to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train. MN 21

If you mean how to speak kindly when under violent attack, well just dont. Apply the teachings in the appropriate context.

Follow the Buddhas example; when faced with aggression get away. Dont be a passive victim. Dont be an aggressive victim. The Middle way is inexhaustible.

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Greetings, everyone :slightly_smiling_face:,

This is Ajahn Kovilo of Clear Mountain Monastery (the monk who got beat up and then gave the talk). @Danny, I’m really moved that you posted the talk here and am very grateful to everyone who has responded with such kind, wise, and supportive words :face_holding_back_tears:.

My back continues to heal (I only have quite minor, morning dukkha there) and my heart continues to be touched by all the metta I’ve received from all over the place. Go Dhamma!!!

Mettacittena :growing_heart::dharmawheel::growing_heart:

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Dear Ajahn

Thanks for your valuable teachings on wise response to violence. Your courageous personal sharing has been inspiring. :anjal:

Thanks also for kindly letting us know you are healing well in body. Im relieved.

Wishing you quick and full healing in body, heart and mind. :yellow_heart:

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Wish for your complete healing, Ajahn.

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May you be well, Ajahn. :anjal: :orange_heart:

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Buddhists (or other religious groups) should never use Hitler as an object of practice or as a simile for anything else. It is very hurtful to the Jewish community.

I see you have replied to my post to me specifically. It seemed you may have a misunderstanding? Just to be clear my post was in no way recommending that kind of practice. It also was not a simile. It was a report used as an example of unskillful practice.

While not condoning that practice in any way, I think condemning Buddhists, who with pure intention to end ill will in themselves tried that metta practice is not useful. Using words like “should never” is problematic in itself.

Apologies to the OP for the off-topic diversion.

It’s very sad what happened to Ajahn Kovilo.

He does a great job at Clear Mountain Monastery.

May he fully recover from his trauma.

I don’t want to blame anyone, but I remembered this sutta. I don’t know if there’s anything similar in the Vinaya about monks going out at night.

  1. Six Drawbacks of Roaming the Streets at Night

There are these six drawbacks of roaming the streets at night. Yourself, your partners and children, and your property are all left unguarded. You’re suspected of bad deeds. Untrue rumors spread about you. You’re at the forefront of many things that entail suffering. These are the six drawbacks of roaming the streets at night.

SuttaCentral

:anjal:

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Ajahn Kovilo wasn’t roaming, he was walking to the bus stop when he was attacked. Roaming means moving around aimlessly and that was not the case. He clearly had a destination in mind.

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Correct @WoodsyLadyM

I thought the sutta was specifically talking about avoiding going out at night.

:anjal:

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Roaming at night, it’s both in conjunction. :folded_hands:

Many thanks to Danny for posting , and of course to the example set by Ajahn Kovilo. I regret to say how short I fall of the Ajahn’s example. I needed to hear this shining example of compassion based on the principle :heart: so aptly demonstrated. I feel like I am a 'better Buddhist" sitting in front of my computer screen than in action:
Last month as I was calmly driving the speed limit, someone almost ran me off the road. And when we stopped at a light, she got out of her car and came back to mine, and spent 60 seconds cursing my driving. So I calmly told her to get back into her car, then I called her a common name for an irate woman. At that point I realized that I had left Buddha at home when I shoulda taken him with me.

Thank you Ajahn Kovilo for the example, and the reminder to always walk or ride with the Buddha, and never to forget to recognize the suffering of our offenders. Apologies to the harried driver, and thanks again.

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The verb at hand is vikālavisikhācariyānuyogo. Let’s break it down. :slight_smile:

vikāla literally means “wrong time”.

visikhā means street.

cariyā is the interesting word here. For example living the holy life in Pāli is brahmacariyā. √car for cariyā means walk, move, act, behave. In fact, I can’t find any other verbs in DPD related to “walking”. So, it should be read in the most basic sense - walking.

In my limited Pāli understanding, it means “Walking the streets at the wrong time.” Now, what constitues wrong time? I wouldn’t want to presume. But It doesn’t necessarily say “after dark”, so I can think of some examples where in certain times where even walking during the day could be wrong (for example, during Covid lockdown with daytime curfews).

I think the important thing here is that it’s just being about, going anywhere at the wrong time (for example, purposefully moving to a hotel during midnight) would be wrong. Again, what is wrong time is highly dependant on cultural context (which I doubt was the case for Bhante Kovilo, and I wouldn’t want to discuss any further). :slight_smile:

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