Apologies for a very brief answer, I’m on a very limited access to internet right now:
All publicly available sutta retreats by Ajahn Brahmali are available right here on D&D and are—with the kind help from community members—annotated with the sutta reference IDs (some are even titled as Dependent origination retreat or something similar, e.g. 2016 January retreat).
I believe there was a thread listing all the suttas dealing with dependent origination but I can’t find it right now (maybe someone can help) that can be used for cross referencing and identifying the retreats focused on dependent origination.
Possibly, but in the sutta passages describing dependent origination in reverse order, it appears that one nidana ceases when the previous nidana ceases - in other words it looks like a straightforward cessation, not a “conversion” of nidanas from avijja to vijja.
Also you seem to be saying that DO continues, but without avijja. This might work for the nidanas from sankhara through to vedana, but it wouldn’t make sense to say that the nidanas from tanha onwards continue as before - those nidanas must cease. But that would mean a partial cessation of dependent origination, which is not the suttas appear to describe.
Is there any support in the suttas for a the idea of a distinction between “ignorant nidanas” and “wise nidanas”?
"So ignorance is a vital condition for choices.
Choices are a vital condition for consciousness.
Consciousness is a vital condition for name and form.
Name and form are vital conditions for the six sense fields.
The six sense fields are vital conditions for contact.
Contact is a vital condition for feeling.
Feeling is a vital condition for craving.
Craving is a vital condition for grasping.
Grasping is a vital condition for continued existence.
Continued existence is a vital condition for rebirth.
Rebirth is a vital condition for suffering.
Suffering is a vital condition for faith.
Wise or suffering-cessating nidana:
Faith is a vital condition for joy.
Joy is a vital condition for rapture.
Rapture is a vital condition for tranquility.
Tranquility is a vital condition for bliss.
Bliss is a vital condition for immersion.
Immersion is a vital condition for truly knowing and seeing.
Truly knowing and seeing is a vital condition for disillusionment.
Disillusionment is a vital condition for dispassion.
Dispassion is a vital condition for freedom.
Freedom is a vital condition for the knowledge of ending."
Thanks, but that wasn’t what I meant. You seemed to be suggesting that the nidanas above could be either ignorant or wise, rather than just ceasing? So for example consciousness could be ignorant or wise, rather than just ceasing?
On your specific question, I infer from the suttas that once the threshold of awakening is crossed by an arahant the process of suffering perpetuating dependent origination is fully ceased. I don’t think however EBTs provide us a clear cut ontology of what exactly is going on beyond that breakthrough.
And maybe even the Buddha would not be much interested in approaching it from that end - mind yourself that the third enobbling truth’s specific ennobling task is for us to verify that ending ourselves. And, of course, that verification comes about with the full development of the path.
There are however hints that in between the liberation and death what supports the fruition of an arahant is the knowledge of destruction of the defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ), as that in turn assures no future birth will come about.
To that point, note that in Nibbānadhātu Sutta (Iti44) the Buddha gives us some hint on how an arahant may “spin” beyond fruition:
“Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge.
However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain.
It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.”
And I understand that the Nibbāna-element with no residue left (anupādisesā nibbānadhātu) found in the Nibbānadhātu Sutta (Iti44) corresponds to what in the Sandiṭṭhikanibbāna Sutta (AN9.47) is termed definitive nibbana (nippariyāyenā nibbānaṃ).
In AN9.47 (and its parallels) we learn that the definitive nibbana is what is known by those who “go totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.”
PS: A related discussion which may be of your interest is found at the link below:
I am not sure if you can say an arahant dies in the same sense an unawakened being dies.
Also, mind that death in the suffering-perpetuating dependent origination represents above all the starting point for a next birth.
It is worth reminding that dependent origination is not a framework for ontological analysis of things. It is in fact a framework for epistemological analysis and understanding of one’s own experience of suffering as the first ennobling task is undertaken.
To me, this is the reason the Buddha gave teachings such as the one found in AN7.54
Well Sir, this looks like westerner view in Buddhist forums. An eastern Buddhist will see both.
Circularity (vi-pratisara), comes from unknowledge that khandhas are what lives and die. Ontology is in khandhas; not self. Epistemology is knowing fact that ontology (existence) is in khandhas. Epistemology is knowing that view of self existing like khandhas, is wrong.
All perfected ones are without ignorance/delusion. SN 48.4 & SN 48.5/SA 645 say that a perfected one has utterly ended the fetters of rebirth (SA 645’s exact words are: “there is no return to any state of existence”). Ending of rebirth can be accomplished by either the ceasing of ignorance/delusion according to SN 12.35/SA 297, or it can be done by giving up lust, anger, and confusion according to AN 10.76/SA 346. As you can see here, if perfected ones still had ignorance/delusion, they wouldn’t be able to eradicate the fetters of rebirth.
The reality that a perfected one is still subject to old age and death can be explained by both DN 11/DA 24. DN 11/DA 24 say that the four elements; long and short, fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly; name and form cease with nothing left over with the cessation of consciousness. This means that when consciousness is still intact, other things won’t cease to be. Any living perfected one’s consciousness is obviously still intact, so natural things like old age, sickness, and death can still occur to them. However, since all perfected ones have eradicated rebirth, when they pass away, their consciousness will find no footing, and their consciousness will cease to be, along with suffering.
There’s Itivuttaka 44 (Iti 44) which talks about two kinds of extinguishment. If you’re interested, you should check it out as well.
I think that DO can be viewed as both ontological and epistemological, and that the nidana “definitions” in SN12.2 and MN9 provide more support for the former than the latter.
The way I understand Arahant have the consciousness.
They do not have ignorance hence they do not fabricate.
What is Arahant? Is he like any doctor or an engineer?
I assume the Arahant has consciousness, since he/she would be dead without out. I’m not clear though what type of consciousness the Arahant has - maybe it’s consciousness without surface ( viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ ) rather than discriminative or dual consciousness ( vinnana )?
In DO the sankharas nidana refers to volition or choice. But if that were to cease then presumably the Arahant would be incapable of making choices?
Some theories suggest that DO ceases completely at the point of Nibbana, which would mean that DO is describing a purely mental, non-physical process. But I don’t think this interpretation is supported by the suttas - by the DO suttas in general ( SN12 ) or by the nidana definitions in particular ( SN12.2 ).
An arahant would still make choices, but once the threefold unholesome roots of greed, hate and delusion have been uprooted these choices are ineffective in the sense of perpetuating suffering and rebirth.
As the arahant is beyond the threshold of awakening, his choices or deeds, are solely rooted in contentment, love, and understanding.
"those who completely understand sensual pleasures,
and the attachment to all future lives;
with the attachment to views uprooted,
and ignorance faded away,
detached from all attachments,
those sages have gone beyond all attachments.”
–AN4.10
I[quote=“Martin, post:23, topic:10098”]
I assume the Arahant is still capable of making choices?
[/quote]
As I understand it, and I may be wrong, arahants certainly work within saṅkhāra just that the results will always have no continuation of kamma as a consequence since they’ve gone beyond production of resultant kammas. It would be impossible to be alive and also not be capable of choice/volition, unless you’re comatose. Arahants would most definitely be untilizing a different mental “operating system” than even an anāgāmī, so forget trying to compare them to an average Joe using the most common mental operating system running within standard DO parameters.
That’s probably right, however, it may be that the arahant is in a kind of temporary “limbo” with regard to DO until parinibbana. Sickness, old age and death would be normal like all beings, but the causal chain of continued existence would be severed of course. So in this state of existence while maintaining a perfected-mind the rules of the mental game don’t apply in the same way as the standard model of DO, such as the end of new resultant kamma…etc. All factors of DO would be eradicated with arahantship per say, just that you don’t always die immediately upon the fruit so DO would be in an altered state until parinibbana.
What you wrote is aligned with what we read in SN12.19;
"For an astute person hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced.
But the astute person has given up that ignorance and finished that craving. Why is that?
The astute person has completed the spiritual journey for the complete ending of suffering. Therefore, when their body breaks up, the astute person is not reborn in another body.
Not being reborn in another body, they’re freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.
They’re freed from suffering, I say.
This is the difference here between the foolish and the astute, that is, living the spiritual life.”
Ok, I think I understand what you have been asking.
The twelve links are not about the ceasing of a perfected one’s bodily and mental functions in the present life (otherwise all perfected ones would die the moment they realised awakening). The twelve links are all about understanding how this entire mass of suffering originates. In SN 12.2/SA 298/T 124, the key words are: “Rebirth is a condition for old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress to come to be. That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.” All three versions agree that the root of suffering is ignorance/delusion. So, this means that when ignorance/delusion is eradicated, any action that is done by a perfected one’s choice will no longer cause him/her to be reborn anywhere after he/she passes away since the root of suffering is no more according to SN 12.35/SA 297.
So when you said that: “In DO the sankharas nidana refers to volition or choice. But if that were to cease then presumably the Arahant would be incapable of making choices?”, as I said above, this is not what the twelve links are about at all. The twelve links are all about any deed that is done by ignorance/delusion-led choice will lead to rebirth, and suffering that follows it.
As I said in my previous post, both DN 11/DA 24 say that the four elements; long and short, fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly; name and form cease with nothing left over with the cessation of consciousness. We know from SN 12.2/SA 298/T 124 that name means feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention (interestingly, both SA 298/T 124 say that name means the four formless aggregates: feeling, perception, choice/intention, and consciousness); form means the four primary elements. This means that as long as a perfected one’s consciousness is still intact (still alive), name and form won’t disappear. So, a perfected one’s bodily and mental functions still work normally. What will never happen again is making choices that will lead to rebirth.
Iti 44 says that there are two types of extinguishment: extinguishment with something left over (reaching extinguishment after realising awakening) and extinguishment with nothing left over (final extinguishment). Obviously, the first type refers to a living perfected one who hasn’t reached the end of his/her life yet. This is like a fire that still burns, but it has no more fuel to burn continuously, so it will go out eventually. The second type refers to a perfected one who has passed away and “reached” final extinguishment, forever freed from rebirth and suffering. This is like a fire that has burnt all of its fuel, and gone out.
