I think that DO can be viewed as both ontological and epistemological, and that the nidana “definitions” in SN12.2 and MN9 provide more support for the former than the latter.
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The way I understand Arahant have the consciousness.
They do not have ignorance hence they do not fabricate.
What is Arahant? Is he like any doctor or an engineer?
I assume the Arahant has consciousness, since he/she would be dead without out. I’m not clear though what type of consciousness the Arahant has - maybe it’s consciousness without surface ( viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ ) rather than discriminative or dual consciousness ( vinnana )?
In DO the sankharas nidana refers to volition or choice. But if that were to cease then presumably the Arahant would be incapable of making choices?
Some theories suggest that DO ceases completely at the point of Nibbana, which would mean that DO is describing a purely mental, non-physical process. But I don’t think this interpretation is supported by the suttas - by the DO suttas in general ( SN12 ) or by the nidana definitions in particular ( SN12.2 ).
An arahant would still make choices, but once the threefold unholesome roots of greed, hate and delusion have been uprooted these choices are ineffective in the sense of perpetuating suffering and rebirth.
As the arahant is beyond the threshold of awakening, his choices or deeds, are solely rooted in contentment, love, and understanding.
I recommend checking AN6.39.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.39/en/sujato
"those who completely understand sensual pleasures,
and the attachment to all future lives;
with the attachment to views uprooted,
and ignorance faded away,
detached from all attachments,
those sages have gone beyond all attachments.”
–AN4.10
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I[quote=“Martin, post:23, topic:10098”]
I assume the Arahant is still capable of making choices?
[/quote]
As I understand it, and I may be wrong, arahants certainly work within saṅkhāra just that the results will always have no continuation of kamma as a consequence since they’ve gone beyond production of resultant kammas. It would be impossible to be alive and also not be capable of choice/volition, unless you’re comatose. Arahants would most definitely be untilizing a different mental “operating system” than even an anāgāmī, so forget trying to compare them to an average Joe using the most common mental operating system running within standard DO parameters.
That’s probably right, however, it may be that the arahant is in a kind of temporary “limbo” with regard to DO until parinibbana. Sickness, old age and death would be normal like all beings, but the causal chain of continued existence would be severed of course. So in this state of existence while maintaining a perfected-mind the rules of the mental game don’t apply in the same way as the standard model of DO, such as the end of new resultant kamma…etc. All factors of DO would be eradicated with arahantship per say, just that you don’t always die immediately upon the fruit so DO would be in an altered state until parinibbana.
Maybe.
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What you wrote is aligned with what we read in SN12.19;
"For an astute person hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced.
But the astute person has given up that ignorance and finished that craving. Why is that?
The astute person has completed the spiritual journey for the complete ending of suffering. Therefore, when their body breaks up, the astute person is not reborn in another body.
Not being reborn in another body, they’re freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.
They’re freed from suffering, I say.
This is the difference here between the foolish and the astute, that is, living the spiritual life.”
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Ok, I think I understand what you have been asking.
The twelve links are not about the ceasing of a perfected one’s bodily and mental functions in the present life (otherwise all perfected ones would die the moment they realised awakening). The twelve links are all about understanding how this entire mass of suffering originates. In SN 12.2/SA 298/T 124, the key words are: “Rebirth is a condition for old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress to come to be. That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.” All three versions agree that the root of suffering is ignorance/delusion. So, this means that when ignorance/delusion is eradicated, any action that is done by a perfected one’s choice will no longer cause him/her to be reborn anywhere after he/she passes away since the root of suffering is no more according to SN 12.35/SA 297.
So when you said that: “In DO the sankharas nidana refers to volition or choice. But if that were to cease then presumably the Arahant would be incapable of making choices?”, as I said above, this is not what the twelve links are about at all. The twelve links are all about any deed that is done by ignorance/delusion-led choice will lead to rebirth, and suffering that follows it.
As I said in my previous post, both DN 11/DA 24 say that the four elements; long and short, fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly; name and form cease with nothing left over with the cessation of consciousness. We know from SN 12.2/SA 298/T 124 that name means feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention (interestingly, both SA 298/T 124 say that name means the four formless aggregates: feeling, perception, choice/intention, and consciousness); form means the four primary elements. This means that as long as a perfected one’s consciousness is still intact (still alive), name and form won’t disappear. So, a perfected one’s bodily and mental functions still work normally. What will never happen again is making choices that will lead to rebirth.
Iti 44 says that there are two types of extinguishment: extinguishment with something left over (reaching extinguishment after realising awakening) and extinguishment with nothing left over (final extinguishment). Obviously, the first type refers to a living perfected one who hasn’t reached the end of his/her life yet. This is like a fire that still burns, but it has no more fuel to burn continuously, so it will go out eventually. The second type refers to a perfected one who has passed away and “reached” final extinguishment, forever freed from rebirth and suffering. This is like a fire that has burnt all of its fuel, and gone out.
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So presumably there would just be wholesome choices ( sankharas ) for the Arahant?
The impression I have from the suttas is of a progressive “winding down” of DO for the Arahant, resulting from the cessation of ignorance and craving.
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