"The formless attainments are not included in the earliest teachings..."

Yes, i know, but i think fear is very fundamental. Fear is very closely related to the idea and perception of self. To identify with body and mind. Being protective. Protecting body and mind, protecting ones status, protecting possession, protecting health, protecting wealth, protecting the fulfilling of needs, protecting our life, protecting good name, fame, etc etc.

I once read that an element of fear is the root of all disturbing emotions. Of becoming conceited, jalous, greedy, angry. Maybe a psycholigist here can comment on this.

I know, ending dukkha is still more, but i think that regarding to mental suffering in this life, fear is very elementairy.

I do not know exactly what Buddha motivated to his search.

Sure. The texts are clear. Buddha visited these two teachers to search for the supreme state of sublime peace . That was his aim. His drive. And he did not find this supreme peace in their teachings nor in their realisations, in short, not in their Dhamma. He was not satisfied with it. In the end he just knew that this was not a supreme peace but only a temporary peace.

I see this as a central theme in Canon. The Buddha did not search for what is conditioned, temporary and does not see this as refuge nor as reliable nor as worth pursuing. It is called an ignoble search.
It is the search of the world, no spiritual search.

I think the Buddha was from the beginning of his search aware that anything conditioned and temporary cannot be a refuge, island, safety, basis of perfect peace.

That he saw jhana still as path to enlightment cannot be because of their temporary nature. It must have another reason.
What reason, i feel, is speculation.

The Buddha does not distinguish formless realms as some kind of alternative to jhanas, since jhanas are classified not according to the object of concentration, but according to factors, qualities of the mind. This is primarily a state of feeling, thinking, concentration of the mind. - piti, sukkha, vitaka, vichara, upekkha, ekaggata. in the fourth jhana there are two factors - ekaggata and upekkha. in 4 formless the same 2 factors. therefore - all four formless spheres are a modification of the 4th jhana with a formless object. Shapeless spheres stand out only because the object changes from coarse to more refined.

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Because I’m interested in what could have historically happened. I guess that is where we differ.

Some parallels of the noble quest say his former teachers had not all the five spiritual faculties, but only faith, energy and wisdom. No samadhi and mindfulness. So that’s interesting at least to me.

I assume you are agreeing with me, as this is my point precisely: as I read the discourses, the Buddha (or, rather, the record we have of the Buddha’s teachings) doesn’t seem to have distinguished between the two as alternatives. Some of his disciples, now, may have–but I think it’s hard to argue that he did.

(Though it does seem that distinguishing between the two as alternatives is quite a popular pastime among contemporary scholars.)

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Hello again Bhante, hello others, :wave:

Got some more time than yesterday when I replied very briefly. Long post, but don’t worry, I’ll bring it back to the topic!

That’s just a silly story, as if I’m just making things up out of thin air (or sucked it out of my thumb, as the Dutch say!) But I have actually thought about things for once! :smiley: There’s many actual reasons why it would be more sensible, and would better fit the suttas as a whole, if the Buddha didn’t attain jhanas under his former teachers. Here they are, for those interested: (And it makes a good story too.)

All of us agree the Buddha rejected sensual pleasures when he went forth, like the three similes in MN36,85,100 also tell us. And later he rejected the pains of the self-mortification. Put aside his former teachers for a moment. Then here’s what seems to have happened next: He wondered, what was the alternative to such pleasure and pain? He realized it’s the pleasure of the jhāna that he once experienced when younger. He then realized he was afraid of it, but there’s no good reason to be. So while up to that point he had avoided the jhanas out of fear, he decided he should now pursue that pleasure. (Notice he doesn’t say anything about views.)

That would explain why later he said he discovered the middle way that avoids sense pleasures and self-mortification (and not the way that avoids wrong views). In DN29 Sāriputta even specifically says the avoidance of these two extreme is the four jhānas:

The Buddha doesn’t indulge in sensual pleasures, which are low, crude, ordinary, ignoble, and pointless. And he doesn’t indulge in self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and pointless. He gets the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when he wants, without trouble or difficulty.

That’s strikingly similar to the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta where the Buddha said he woke up to (or ‘discovered’ if you will) the eightfold path that avoids both these extremes—the path which of course finishes with the four jhānas.

To me, that seems to be the point: that, alongside the rest of the path, the Buddha found a new kind of happiness that he hadn’t really pursued before. That his former teachers just lacked right view to me is unconvincing. Even the whole stint of asceticism then seems to serve little purpose, narratively or otherwise.

Let’s summarize the path as sīla, samādhi and paññā. Sīla was essentially a new idea, being based on intention instead of Vedic rituals or Jain karmic particles. Of course the paññā was new (which, btw, shows his former teachers’ paññā wasn’t true paññā, so why would their samādhi be true samādhi?) So why wouldn’t the samādhi be a new discovery too? It doesn’t seem too unreasonable to assume.

And isn’t that’s exactly what he states when he said he realized the first jhāna was the path? He didn’t say, “back then I attained a jhana without having a wrong view.” He just states that he entered the first jhāna, and that he realized that he should no longer fear it. I prefer to take that statement at face value. Others can disagree, of course. One can read this jhana statement in light of his former teachers account. Or we can read the former teachers account in light of this statement. I wouldn’t want to pretend like any one of them is the only or obvious interpretation (or story), though. It clearly isn’t, given that many people have wondered about this before.

Then there are also quite a few suttas that effectively say samādhi leads directly to seeing things as they are (eg AN11.2), and that the seven enlightenment factors (which are centered around meditation, not view) similarly lead to awakening. And of course in the Dhammapada that jhāna and wisdom go together. He even said the seven enlightenment factors (i.e. meditation, essentially, since these starts with sati and end with equanimity) are the path. (SN47.21) Once he even said just samādhi is the path. (AN6.64) This all rhymes if jhāna was indeed central to his discovery.

Then, the deva Pañcalacaṇḍa said: “The Buddha who woke up to (or ‘discovered’ if you will) jhāna […] has found the opening amidst confinement,” where the opening is jhāna and the confinement the five sense pleasures. (SN2.7, AN9.42) In SN45.14 the Buddha said the eight factors of the path don’t arise without the appearance of a Tathagata. Could mean the path as a whole, but it can also be read as each factor, including samādhi. And in DN10, upon hearing the four jhānās explained by Ānanda, the Brahmin student Subha said: “Among renunciants and brahmins of other schools I do not see such a fulfilled noble set of samādhi.” The Ratana Sutta states: “The supreme Buddha extolled […] samādhi to which no equal can be found." We can take these all to mean he realized the importance of jhana in context of right view, though that’s never explicitly stated anywhere, or we take them to say he actually “found the opening” himself, as he seems to have done when he recollected the first jhāna.

Also, and I think very importantly, in a number of suttas it very much seems the Buddha started developing samādhi only in the period just before his enlightenment—which would make a whole lot of sense if he just realized jhana was the path and had avoided them earlier ot of fear. MN19, for example, presents his problems with thoughts while developing samādhi and follows it up directly with his enlightenment. MN128 mentions a whole list of obstacles, including noticeably fear, and it also leads straight to enlightenment. If indeed he was already proficient in the formless attainments, having attained them “very quickly” according to the former-teachers passage, I wouldn’t expect all these troubles to attain samādhi just before his enlightenment. Moreover, these texts (like also AN9.41 and MN4) never even even so much as hint at his former experience with the formless, let alone his former teachers. It seems very much like he was doing his own thing. He always says he understood (“it occurred to me”) that these things were obstacles, and that he realized how to overcome them. He wasn’t told by anyone. AN9.41 furthermore follows such stuggles to get the samādhi attainments with the cessation of perception and feeling, which further indicates this development didn’t happen under his former teachers.

Some more minor points:

As I briefly said before, some parallel versions of the noble search mention his former teachers only had three of the five faculties—faith, energy, and wisdom—leaving out mindfulness and samādhi. I got that from Ānalayo’s Comparative Studies of the Majjhima. The omission of samādhi wouldn’t make much sense if his teachers did attain the formless states, so we might be tempted reject these parallels straight away, like Ānalayo does. But the usual corruption of a text is when things get leveled. In this case it would have been easy for a reciter to accidentally expand the three faculties to the standard five, since they are used to reciting them as a group elsewhere. It is less likely they were taken out. So what if his teachers didn’t really have samādhi and all they had was basically just theories about it, or perhaps just some alternative meditation that wasn’t true samādhi?

We can add to that that in the Upanishads and other pre-Buddhist texts meditation and especially samādhi are basically non-existent, if there at all, as far as I can tell. As I said before, as far as my limited knowledge goes, the Brahmins usually thought mere conceptual knowledge was enough, which probably stems from the idea of the memorization of the Vedas being considered liberating in and of itself. Ramaputta called himself a knowledge-master (vedagū), which seems to refer to such scriptural knowledge too.((SN35.103))

So then, here’s what I think happened, and which is also the story I read: The Buddha rejected sensual pleasures when he went forth, rejected conceptual/scriptural knowledge and theory under his former teachers, and rejected asceticism after his austerities. Having rejected household life and the two major religions of the time (Brahminism and Jainism), he then formed his own path based on an earlier memory of jhāna. :slight_smile:

I’ve left out what could be said from a psychological point of view. First, that inside the jhānas and arūpas you can’t have a theory, whether right or wrong. The first jhānas the bodhisattva would have attained under his former teachers would have been the exact same state of mind as the first jhāna in his earlier days. There’s no difference even between the jhāna of an unenlightened person and an enlightened person. (Which explains why they are called the happiness of awakening and described with the exact same words for the Buddha as for anyone else.) So that makes it even more unexplainable why he recalled the jhāna he had before he met his teachers. He would have recalled the more recent ones.

And also, the jhanas are so similar and close to gaining insight (e.g. AN11.2, “It is natural that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really are.”) that I find it totally unbelievable the Buddha went all the way to the very end of the formless attainments and then still went so horribly wrong as to practice asceticism to the point of almost dying! That may be a nice story, sure, but I think incredibly, incredibly unlikely to have actually happened. Come on, neither-perception-nor-nonperception is just a hair’s breadth away from nibbāna. Absolutely no way the Buddha would have missed it. Especially since nibbāna can be seen from the first jhāna already. (AN9.34, MN52)

In fact, that the former teachers taught him all the way to the highest non-cessation states is so remarkably convenient for a good story to make the Buddha out to be a natural meditator, that it has to be exactly that: a story. So very “coincidental” the first teachers he met taught him exactly those two states…

Which brings me back to the topic: Some have argued the formless attainments are late parts of the path partly based on the Buddha’s account of his former teachers where he “rejected” them. But it’s more likely to have happened the other way round: His former teachers account may be what’s late. They could for example have taught something else which was either forgotten or got too obscure for the reciters to relate to, and these formless states were put in place later. Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the Pali Canon this former teachers story is just the one passage, repeated a handful of times in the Majjhima Nikāya. That makes it more likely this passage is unoriginal than the very many texts that incorporate the formless attainments in various ways. We all know the texts are far from perfect records (32 marks of a great man, anyone?) so in light of all I’ve said I don’t think it a ridiculous assumption to say something may be off about the teachers passage.

And the best thing about all this is… in the end it doesn’t matter at all! :smiley: Because we got the path laid down for us regardless of how the Buddha got there. Which is why later I will respectfully read all of yours lovely replies, but probably not argue my ideas much further.

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This actually tends to be my view as well, but (perhaps?) on different grounds. For those, see Karen Arbel’s book Early Buddhist Meditation: The Four Jhānas as the Actualization of Insight

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Hi venerable, mind explaining in a sentence or two? I don’t have access to the book and can’t seem to find a synopsys.

She rejects the Vsm/Cmy tradition which identifies the Jhānas with extremely still, samatha states of consciousness, and instead argues that the Jhānas (esp. in Samma Samādhi) were the stages of insight “actualization.”

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Have you–Venerable, or anyone else–read Eviatar Shulman’s first book, Rethinking the Buddha Early Buddhist Philosophy as Meditative Perception? He basically interprets the individual phrases associated with the Four Noble Truths (“idaṁ dukkhaṁ,” “idaṁ dukkhasamudayo,” etc.) as “records” of an actual mental event: specifically, a practicioner’s awakened insight regarding a percept (the “idaṁ”) taking place in real time 4th jhāna.

In order to enter the formless you need a high degree of equanimity. How can you have that without mastering the 4th Jhana?

There are many kinds of upekkha. MN 137 explicitly identifies upekkhā based on unity with only the formless attainments: a different base of equanimity than the upekkhā of the 4th Jhāna

See e.g. AN 8.66 for how.

And, of course, Karen Arbel’s book for the full argument.

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If my memory is not wrong, in his book Bronkhrost also argued that the account of Bodhisatta’s training in the two teachers is a late addition too, not just that the formless attainment is late. Interestingly, he also concluded that the liberating insight for attaining enlightenment is late, which means the jhanas solely constitute the Buddha’s enlightenment.

Wow!

Thank you so much, Venerable. You’re a good kalyanamitta to have!

Thank you. A great gift to me today (though unintentionally for you).

Sadhu!

May you continue to enjoy walking on this wholesome path and eventually see the Dhamma.

Mega metta,

Dheerayupa

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MN 106 refers to the sphere of nothingness without referring to jhana

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘Sensual pleasures in this life and in lives to come, sensual perceptions in this life and in lives to come, visions in this life and in lives to come, perceptions of visions in this life and in lives to come, and perceptions of the imperturbable; all are perceptions. Where they cease without anything left over, that is peaceful, that is sublime, namely the dimension of nothingness.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of nothingness now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is said to be the first way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of nothingness.

Furthermore, a noble disciple has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this: ‘This is empty of a self or what belongs to a self.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of nothingness now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is said to be the second way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of nothingness.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘I don’t belong to anyone anywhere! And nothing belongs to me anywhere!’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of nothingness now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is said to be the third way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of nothingness.

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Came on here to say what @CurlyCarl has said, there are plenty of places in the suttas where the formless attainments are arrived at via some other progression of states than that of Jhana.

There are also plenty of places where the 4 jhanas are presented alone, without the formless attainments, as being sufficient to achieve nibbana.

I think that @sujato makes some good points too, the formless attainments, and the jhanas themselves, are not in themselves enlightening, it is the correct knowledge and view that arises from interpreting these experiences correctly that constitutes enlightenment.

AS most on here know by now I have the heretical view that the suttas show a pretty clear progression from the Atthakavagga Parayanavagga and Sekkha patipada to the more developed discourses in the DN and MN, to the “formalised” SN which is in my view a “proto abhidhamma”.

In the first book of DN, the four jhanas are presented in the Sekha Patipada in just about every sutta, as a fundemental part of the path of practice.

The formless attainments are not mentioned until DN9 where they are used in the discussion of the Buddhist philosophy of perception. In DN1 they are not mentioned but meditative attainments that perceive the cosmos as infinite are.

at DN15 we have:

Ānanda, there are these eight liberations.
Aṭṭha kho ime, ānanda, vimokkhā.
What eight?
Katame aṭṭha?

Having physical form, they see visions.
Rūpī rūpāni passati
This is the first liberation.
ayaṁ paṭhamo vimokkho.

Not perceiving form internally, they see visions externally.
Ajjhattaṁ arūpasaññī bahiddhā rūpāni passati,
This is the second liberation.
ayaṁ dutiyo vimokkho.

They’re focused only on beauty.
Subhanteva adhimutto hoti,
This is the third liberation.
ayaṁ tatiyo vimokkho.

Going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space.
Sabbaso rūpasaññānaṁ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṁ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṁ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati,
This is the fourth liberation.
ayaṁ catuttho vimokkho.

Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite consciousness.
Sabbaso ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma ‘anantaṁ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati,
This is the fifth liberation.
ayaṁ pañcamo vimokkho.

Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they enter and remain in the dimension of nothingness.
Sabbaso viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati,
This is the sixth liberation.
ayaṁ chaṭṭho vimokkho.

Going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, they enter and remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
Sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma nevasañ­ñā­nāsa­ñ­ñāya­tanaṁ upasampajja viharati,
This is the seventh liberation.
ayaṁ sattamo vimokkho.

Going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, they enter and remain in the cessation of perception and feeling.
Sabbaso nevasañ­ñā­nāsa­ñ­ñāya­tanaṁ samatikkamma saññā­ve­dayi­tani­r­odhaṁ upasampajja viharati,
This is the eighth liberation.
ayaṁ aṭṭhamo vimokkho.

These are the eight liberations.
Ime kho, ānanda, aṭṭha vimokkhā.

Note that the jhanas are not mentioned in this sequence.

At MN25 we have

And where is it that Māra and his assembly can’t go?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, agati mārassa ca māraparisāya ca?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra, put out his eyes without a trace, and gone where the Wicked One cannot see.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu andhamakāsi māraṁ, apadaṁ vadhitvā māracakkhuṁ adassanaṁ gato pāpimato.

Furthermore, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā, pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā, adukkhamasukhaṁ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṁ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṁ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṁ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma ‘anantaṁ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave …pe… pāpimato.

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati. Paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra, put out his eyes without a trace, and gone where the Wicked One cannot see. And they’ve crossed over clinging to the world.”
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu andhamakāsi māraṁ, apadaṁ vadhitvā māracakkhuṁ adassanaṁ gato pāpimato tiṇṇo loke visattikan”ti.

this may be the first time? that the sequence of the 4 jhanas is directly followed by the 4 arupas in DN/MN.

Anyway, I have been quite busy with non-buddhist things the last few months, however I think it is quite reasonable to believe that the jhana system stood independantly from the arupa picture for the buddhism of the first part of DN and the early parts of MN.

The arupas look sort of like they evolved form cosmological arguments that the EBT’s ultimately sought to transcend and de-reify.

The jhanas are more “deflationary”.

TLDR; in the first half of DN, which I consider to be “early” ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ occurs first in DN1 in a discussion of wrong views, and then in DN9 in a discussion of the philosophy of perception.

Cattāro Jhānā on the other hand occurs all over the place (DN2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12) and they are almost always followed not by the formless attainments but by the psychic powers and the 3 knowledges.

Whether or not the formless attainments where “later additions” (i don’t think they where) they definitely appear to emerge from a different “line” of thinking to that of the classic jhana formula as it stands as part of the Sekha Patipada.

Metta!

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Oh, and just another point, in MN1 we have;

A mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—directly knows earth as earth.
Yopi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu arahaṁ khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññā vimutto, sopi pathaviṁ pathavito abhijānāti;
But they don’t identify with earth, they don’t identify regarding earth, they don’t identify as earth, they don’t identify that ‘earth is mine’, they don’t take pleasure in earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito abhiññāya pathaviṁ na maññati, pathaviyā na maññati, pathavito na maññati, pathaviṁ meti na maññati, pathaviṁ nābhinandati.
Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?
Because they’re free of greed due to the ending of greed.
Khayā rāgassa, vītarāgattā.

They directly know water …
Āpaṁ …pe…
fire …
tejaṁ …
air …
vāyaṁ …
creatures …
bhūte …
gods …
deve …
the Creator …
pajāpatiṁ …
Brahmā …
brahmaṁ …
the gods of streaming radiance …
ābhassare …
the gods replete with glory …
subhakiṇhe …
the gods of abundant fruit …
vehapphale …
the Overlord …
abhibhuṁ …
the dimension of infinite space …
ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ …
the dimension of infinite consciousness …
viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ …
the dimension of nothingness …
ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ …
the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception …
nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ …
the seen …
diṭṭhaṁ …
the heard …
sutaṁ …
the thought …
mutaṁ …
the known …
viññātaṁ …
oneness …
ekattaṁ …
diversity …
nānattaṁ …
all …
sabbaṁ …
They directly know extinguishment as extinguishment.
nibbānaṁ nibbānato abhijānāti;
But they don’t identify with extinguishment, they don’t identify regarding extinguishment, they don’t identify as extinguishment, they don’t identify that ‘extinguishment is mine’, they don’t take pleasure in extinguishment.
nibbānaṁ nibbānato abhiññāya nibbānaṁ na maññati, nibbānasmiṁ na maññati, nibbānato na maññati, nibbānaṁ meti na maññati, nibbānaṁ nābhinandati.
Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?
Because they’re free of greed due to the ending of greed.
Khayā rāgassa, vītarāgattā.

I note that the arupas are “directly known” like earth air water and fire, but the Jhanas are not mentioned at all.

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I was not aware of this, @josephzizys. And, while I wouldn’t say that I hold this “heretical view” of yours, I am definitely very sympathetic to it (except for the part about the SN being “proto-abhidhamma”: while I can see that, I think I would reserve such a title for the AN), and would like to hear more about it. Would you care to expound a bit on your reasons? (Perhaps that would require a new thread.) Or maybe you could direct me to some old threads where you already have.

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The commentary to this sutta takes ākāsānañcāyatana and the rest as referring to the formless realms, not the formless attainments.

“The base of infinite space is the four aggregates based on this plane – the wholesome (kusala), resultants (vipāka), and inoperatives (kiriyā). But here only the aggregates of those reborn on that plane are meant, for this is a discussion delimiting the planes of existence. The same method in the case of the base of infinite consciousness, etc. The interpretation of the meaning in these four sections follows the method given in the section on the Vanquishers. But here the conceiving of conceit should be interpreted according to the method of the section on Pajāpati.”

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I will definitely get back to you on this @knotty36 :slight_smile:

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