The Karma cause-effect chain

Simple question. But I suspect it has been asked numerous times before, so it has to be non-simple . :slight_smile:

I now seem to know from experience that all my actions, including writing this message, are not -strictly speaking- voluntary. Thoughts come into the mind and leave constantly. It seems to be a matter when which thoughts to responds to, which creates bad or good Karma, whether it is mind Karma or body Karma.

Now, when I meditate, or rather when I choose to meditate, it is still a thought or an impulse that comes from nowhere and I react to it by starting to meditate.
The problem here seems to be that, if the epitome of Buddha’s teaching is to become free of the Karma, and that includes the Mind Karma of course, then even by meditating it is still considered a Karma. It is still a reaction to an impulse that comes from nowhere.
Isn’t a paradox in that sense? Because , you know, whatever I do, whether it is according to the path or otherwise, is still a reaction, and the goal seems to be free of these chain of reactions.
Well of course, I can’t stop reacting, it is impossible. So the Karma will always be in full effect, like it has always been, and exactly because of a previous cause which I - seemingly involuntarily- have reacted to, I meditate and ponder about the Buddha’s teachings (plus other teachings) now.

Can you see the missing link in the chain? Exactly because of this missing link, I have to explore other similar teachings from other religions and sects, with associatons to Buddhism.

It takes more than just to be free of karma to meaningfully advance on the Path, though that’s a good start.

It’s important to define what kamma (karma in Sanskrit) is. Kamma is defined more like action or deeds. According to AN 3.76 “deeds are the field, consciousness is the seed, and craving is the moisture.”

I don’t think our minds conjure things up out of nowhere. Our minds are conditioned. We think certain ways and act certain ways due to this conditioning. We are the heir to our kamma from this life and previous and future lives. Our consciousness is stimulated by phenomena perceived by our six senses and we come to conclusions about it via inference. Our perceptions are usually not the way things really are. We go off track because of the defilements of our minds and the choices we make.

The path of the Buddha is to, with intention, train our minds to to get secluded from the course aspects like the body and habituated mental constructs, abandon the hinderances to the deep meditative state where we are stable and can see clearly the way things really are.

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As far as I know, Kamma does not cover everything, rather only a list of about 10 subjects (and their according opposites), called the “ten courses of action”. They are basically just the Sila plus wrong view.

Yes you will not escape the law of causality, but then nobody knows if that law is not only relative to human perception anyway. Pondering questions like these is discouraged by the Buddha in the simile of the poisoned arrow (MN63) IMO.

And there are some that say that there are remnants of Dukkha even with Arahants while still physically alive, which would probably include your issue.

AN 4.235 could be relevant:

And what are neither dark nor bright deeds with neither dark nor bright results, which lead to the ending of deeds?

It’s the intention to give up dark deeds with dark results, bright deeds with bright results, and both dark and bright deeds with both dark and bright results. These are called neither dark nor bright deeds with neither dark nor bright results, which lead to the ending of deeds.

You can use something to reach its own ending, like in AN 4.159:

Relying on food, you should give up food. […] Relying on craving, you should give up craving. […] Relying on conceit, you should give up conceit.

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In one way of speaking, there are four types of karma:
(1) Bright karma, which produces pleasant results in the cycle of rebirth.
(2) Dark karma, which produces painful results.
(3) Bright and dark, which produces a mixture of pleasure and pain.
(4) Karma to end karma, which leads to freedom from karma.

The last is proper Buddhist practice. Like the desire to end desires, or the view to let go of attachment to views, it is a karma that leads to its own self-destruction if properly implemented.

See: AN 4.34, AN 4.237,AN 4.238, etc.

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One starts by action ie karma and stops by non action ie non karma . Thats how one free from the chain reactions .

In my opinion, just as when we breathe, it is not always an act that arises from our own will, meditating is a skill that is cultivated, when the time comes, it behaves like those muscles that perform breathing without being part of our will.
When we breathe, we may inhale polluted air or clean air, but it is not always our will. In meditation it is the same, the Dukkha may come to mind, but just as we try to breathe clean air at will, our actions, voluntary or not, need to move away from the Dukkha.

It is useful for a person to be aware of the conditioned nature of the mind, as long as they do not fall into a fatalistic attitude (which was strongly condemned by the Buddha) and instead use this understanding to guide their mind toward the realization of the Unconditioned.

The necessary conditions for the formation of intentions are contact with phenomena (through the senses) combined with the understanding related to that contact. An incomplete understanding of what is being experienced will always result in an action with a charged intention—kamma that is dark, bright, or something in between. This charge is represented by the three unwholesome roots—greed, aversion, and delusion (and their respective counterparts), which are essentially manifestations of craving and clinging.

It is possible for actions to be motivated by non-greed and non-aversion while still carrying some residue of ignorance (bright kamma). However, it is impossible for direct understanding of a phenomenon (totally non-deluded, or wise) to result in an action motivated by greed or aversion. Actions not based on these three roots, even if intentional, are free from craving and clinging, carry no kammic charge, and do not sustain cycles of reactivity. Indeed, these actions, being free of kammic charge, deplete those cycles, leading the mind to a non-reative state of freedom and equanimity.

The actions of an arahant are all free from compulsion and reactivity. Their intentions are always the best possible, and the course of their actions varies only based on their skills as well as their capacity to foresee the possible consequences of their intended actions.

The mind, being a conditioned phenomenon, depends on conditions to realize the Unconditioned. These special conditions are grouped in the Noble Eightfold Path.

AN 4.33 Aggappasādasutta

The noble eightfold path is said to be the best of all conditioned things. Those who have confidence in the noble eightfold path have confidence in the best. Having confidence in the best, the result is the best.

Fading away is said to be the best of all things whether conditioned or unconditioned. That is, the quelling of vanity, the removing of thirst, the abolishing of clinging, the breaking of the round, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment. Those who have confidence in the teaching of fading away have confidence in the best. Having confidence in the best, the result is the best.

Thank you everybody for your responses.

However, I can’t help but feel that my path lies in the Iranian Sufism. Buddha gave me a good start and kinda open my eyes towards reality, but I am inclining more and more towards the mysticism and Gnosis of our culture every day. And it has answers for the Kamma problem that I feel fits me more and pulls me more.

So thanks Buddha , to all Buddhas all over the world, in whatever form. :slight_smile:

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Remember the importance of generosity, virtuous behavior, and the cultivation of the mind. Avoid the extremes of pursuit of sensuality and self-mortification. Even if you are not inclined towards Buddhism, cultivating these factors will certainly be beneficial.

Feel free to come back whenever you like. Good luck!

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Could somebody address the list of the 10 causal actions of Kamma and Vipeka? Is that not universally recognized then?

https://suttacentral.net/an10.176/en/sujato

Through Body (Kayakamma):

  1. Killing (Panatipata) → Short life, poor health
  2. Stealing (Adinnadana) → Poverty, loss of wealth
  3. Sexual misconduct (Kamesu micchacara) → Marital problems, unhealthy relationships

Through Speech (Vacikamma):
4. Lying (Musavada) → Being falsely accused, not being believed when speaking truth
5. Divisive speech (Pisunavaca) → Loss of friendships, isolation
6. Harsh speech (Pharusavaca) → Hearing unpleasant sounds, harsh words from others
7. Idle chatter (Samphappalapa) → Words lacking impact, not being taken seriously

Through Mind (Manokamma):
8. Covetousness (Abhijjha) → Unfulfilled desires, constant dissatisfaction
9. Ill will (Vyapada) → Fear, paranoia, being disliked by others
10. Wrong views (Micchaditthi) → Confusion, lack of wisdom, difficulty understanding Dhamma

Yes, exactly. So how is all of the above discussion meaningful if Kamma is limited to only these?

When I read the OP’s question, it seemed to me that his doubt was about how to escape conditioned actions if the very actions taken for this purpose also appear to be conditioned. That’s why I mentioned how the Noble Eightfold Path (which is conditioned) can lead to Nibbāna (which is unconditioned).

There are basically 10 wholesome actions, but there are two possible outcomes for these actions: a bright result if conditioned by craving and clinging, and no kammic result if performed without craving and clinging—such as in the case of the Arahants. So, 10 wholesome actions, 10+ possible Vipakas.

I don’t think we shall do justice to the suttas’ teaching on akusala kamma if we suppose the term’s scope to be limited to just the ten akusala kammapathas.

For example, if we go through the suttas looking at occurrences of the phrase “would be deposited in hell as if brought there” (yathābhataṃ nikkhitto evaṃ niraye), we’ll find that although in the majority of cases it’s the items in the ten akusala kammapatha formula (or its various fungibles, like the three duccaritas) that are stated to conduce to this vipāka, there are several suttas listing other kinds of action, habit, character flaw or mental state that conduce to this unwelcome outcome – kinds that don’t seem to fall among the akusala kammapathas.

In the Anguttara Nikāya these would include: envy and stinginess; being biased by delusion or fear; praising those who merit dispraise, and vice versa; believing something that merits doubt or disbelieving something that merits belief; taking intoxicants; ingratitude; laziness; squandering gifts given by the faithful (in the case of monastics), &c.

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I see. The teacher I originally learned Buddhism from at the London Vihara tought only the kammapathas. Does this reflect the oppinion of a single school of Buddhism then?

In Thailand one often hears the same spiel from ābhidhammikas. Not from the best ābhidhammikas, but from beginners whose learning is limited to Anuruddha’s Abhidhammatthasangaha and modern textbooks based on it, and who haven’t yet studied the Vibhanga and its commentaries.

Though Anuruddha doesn’t himself claim that the scope of akusala kamma is limited to the ten akusala kammapathas, nevertheless he is easily misread as holding such a view, since he does confine his exposition to what Buddhaghosa calls “exposition with respect to the courses of kamma” (kammapathavasena niddesa), without venturing into the more ambitious and comprehensive forms of exposition, i.e., “according to all-inclusive kamma” (sabbasaṅgāhikakammavasena niddesa) and “according to volition-produced only” (nibbattitacetanāvasen’eva niddesa).

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Okay interesting thanks Vennrable. I believe the London Vihara is indeed run by “scholastic”/abidhammic monks.

I know that such questions are not goal of core Buddhism, though I’m afraid this question remains unanswered to me as far as strict Theravada Buddhism is concerned, unless somebody would kindly refer to some AbbiDhamma text or an essay outside of the Canon.

So the question is how was I led to explore Buddhism? How did it happen that I stumbled upon a book on Buddhism? Was it not a chain of actions out of ignorance that led me there? Because you know, I did many bad deeds in the past out of mere ignorance, and many good ones as well and it couldn’t possibly led to my experience of Buddhism if those actions - bad and good- hadn’t happened like it did. In other words, the chain of causality led me there, and now here.

What I am trying to say, is that, who’s to say that by doing bad deeds out of ignorance , one would not become enlightened in the end? In fact, wasn’t Siddhartha himself an example? Because he used to revel in the pleasures of his palace before becoming the Buddha?
Do we really choose the path? Or does it come upon us by itself?

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