The meaning of "old kamma is to be felt"

Hi ,

Is there any other plain translation for this part ? Does it refer to all kind of experiences that we go through ? Or the feeling itself whenever there is arising of feelings ?

:pray:

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/bodhi

This body , the mind etc is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt.

Mendicants, this body [group] doesn’t belong to you or to anyone else.

Nāyaṁ, bhikkhave, kāyo tumhākaṁ napi aññesaṁ.

It’s old deeds, and should be seen as produced by choices and intentions, as something to be felt.

Purāṇamidaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ vedaniyaṁ daṭṭhabbaṁ.

SN 12.37

I mean the meaning “to be felt” , is it similar to the meaning of “to be experienced” , both emotionally and physically ?

And what is old action?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṁ?

The eye is old action. It should be seen as produced by choices and intentions, as something to be felt.
Cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ vedaniyaṁ daṭṭhabbaṁ …pe…

The ear … nose … tongue … body …
jivhā purāṇakammā abhisaṅkhatā abhisañcetayitā vedaniyā daṭṭhabbā …pe…

mind is old action. It should be seen as produced by choices and intentions, as something to be felt. mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.

This is called old action.
Idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṁ.

SN 35.146

to be felt as in sensation, as when one feels a pain when poked in the eye.

vedaniya
ptp. could be felt; experienceable; tangible; lit. to be felt [√vid + *aniya]

or in more detail, from Vedanā :

Vedanā (f.) [fr. ved˚;: see [vedeti](javascript:void(0)); cp. Epic Sk. vedanā] feeling, sensation (see on term, e. g. Cpd. 14 Mrs. Rh D. B. Psy., ch. iv.) D i.45; ii.58 (cp. Dial. ii.54), 66 iii.58, 77, 221, 228, 238 (˚[upādāna]; S iii.86 sq.; A i.39, 122, 141; ii.79, 198, 256; iii.245 sq., 450; iv.301 385; Kh iii. (tisso v.); Sn 435, 529, 739, 1111; Nd1 109 Nd2 551 (tisso v.); Ps i.6, 50 sq., 145 sq., 153 sq. ii.109 sq., 181 sq.; Vbh 135 sq., 294, 401, 403 sq. Dhs 3, 1348; Nett 27, 65 sq.; 83, 123, 126; Tikp 246 317 sq., 345 sq.; Vism 460 sq.; DA i.125; VbhA 13 sq. 39 sq., 80, 178, 193, 221 (˚ânupassanā, in detail), 263 sq. 382 (various). – Three modes of feeling (usually understood whenever mention is made of “tisso vedanā”) sukhā (pleasant), dukkhā (painful) adukkha – m – asukhā (indifferent) D iii.275; S ii.53, 82; iv.207; A iii.400 It 46; Tikp 317 sq. – or: kusalā, akusalā, avyākatā Vism 460. – Five vedanās: sukhaṃ, dukkhaṃ, somanassaṃ domanassaṃ, [upekkhā] Vism 461. Categories of 2 to 108 modes of Vedanā, S iv.223 sq. – vedanā is one of the 5 khandhas (see [khandha]ii.B). – On relation of old and new sensations (purāṇa˚>nava˚) see e. g A ii.40; iii.388; iv.167; Vism 33; and see formula under [yātrā]. – In the Paṭiccasamuppāda (q. v.) vedanā stands between [phassa] as condition and [taṇhā] as result; see e. g. Vism 567 sq.

It seems to mean to only feel it rather than cling to it, per the below:

It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. AN 3.61

when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral—they meditate observing impermanence, dispassion, cessation, and letting go in those feelings. Meditating in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished. MN 37

Having given up favoring and opposing, when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral—they don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to it. As a result, relishing of feelings ceases. When their relishing ceases, grasping ceases… MN 38

Mendicants, this body [group] doesn’t belong to you or to anyone else.

Nāyaṁ, bhikkhave, kāyo tumhākaṁ napi aññesaṁ.

It’s old deeds, and should be seen as produced by choices and intentions, as something to be felt.

Purāṇamidaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ vedaniyaṁ daṭṭhabbaṁ.

SN 12.37

Does it means , experiencing it ? Just describing going through the experience ?

daṭṭhabba
future passive participle adjective

  1. to be seen; to be considered as

SuttaCentral

I recall previous discussions about this, where it was questioned what the “daṭṭhabba” applies to.

Bodhi & Sujato seem to apply the daṭṭhabba to the volition & feelings, as follows:

  • It should be seen as produced by choices and intentions, as something to be felt… (Sujato)
  • to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. (Bodhi)

But Buddhadasa & Thanissaro, for example, applied the daṭṭhabba to the old kamma, as follows:

  • You ought to see this “old karma” (Buddhadasa)
  • The eye is to be seen as old kamma (Thanissaro)

Say there is a feeling of joy arisen , you experience the joy , that feeling of joy is an old kamma ? You felt the joy .

mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.

daṭṭhabbo one should consider
vedaniyo as to be felt
abhisañcetayito thought up
abhisaṅkhato composed of
purāṇakammo past action
mano the mind

one should consider ones current state of mind, constructed by and composed of past actions, as something to be felt/experienced.

something like that?

whats troubling you about the translations as given?

1 Like

So does it means , sadness occurs , you are experiencing the sadness , you felt sad , that is old kamma ? Or you have a tingling sensation in your body , you feel tingling , is that tingling sensation an old kamma ?

my sense is that the mind example is the trickiest one, in the case of the body I think it’s more that you halved one, it was conceived by your mother and father years ago and built of porridge from past meals

“Joy” seems like a term referring happiness from new kamma rather than pleasant sensation from “old kamma”. Keep in mind the sutta you are quoting says:

“And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear is old kamma … The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus is new kamma? Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.

SN 35.146.

SN 35.136 seems to say the sense organs are “old kamma”; that are to be felt; and not clung to with craving & self-view.

New kamma is when you perform action through body speech n mind but joy arises as your experience that you felt , say someone else (their new kamma) is commending on yourself .

So , to be felt is regards as old kamma or new kamma ?

If I make new kamma of eating chocolate, the joy from eating chocolate seems to be from new kamma rather than from old kamma.

The sutta you started this topic about seems very difficult to understand. Most people interpret the “old kamma” to be about ‘rebirth’ from past lives.

If you want to try to interpret this sutta differently, then the sutta is saying “old kamma” (“old habits”; “old tendencies”) manifests in the present therefore the old kamma is the present eyes, ears nose, tongue, body & mind which should be felt rather than used to make new kamma with. :slightly_smiling_face:

The term “to be felt” mean “to be experienced” ? But all the experiences itself from moment of birth to death is new kamma ? Only the 6 sense organs are old kamma ?

I already suggested basic dhamma practice to you.

Basic dhamma practice is to experience only feelings so the feelings do not generate craving & attachment.

When you use the word “experiencing”, this is too broad. I would stick with the translation of “feel”.

The sutta is obviously saying to feel old kamma and to not generate new kamma. The purpose of the sutta is to end kamma. The sutta says:

And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of kamma? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

:dizzy:

“To be felt” seems to mean to not generate new kamma.

You need to learn the basic Dhamma practise. It seems you don’t yet know what the basic Dhamma practise is. The basic Dhamma practice taught is to only experience feelings (vedana) to prevent craving (tanha) & attachment (upadana) arising.

No , it just mean experiencing .
I mean the term .

Then it means , the old kamma is the 6 sense organs and
(that it can give rise to experience which is to be felt) .

I cannot say what this sutta means. It is not clear enough for me. I already posted :

  • Bodhi & Sujato translate “ear, eyes… body, mind… is old kamma”.

  • Buddhadasa & Thanissaro translation: “ear, eyes… body, mind… should be viewed as old kamma”.

For Bodhi & Sujato, that the sense organs & aggregates are old kamma is literal.

For Buddhadasa & Thanissaro, that the sense organs & aggregates are old kamma seems to be metaphor. :slightly_smiling_face:

For most people, old kamma is actions performed in the past. SN 35.146 seems to not literally saying this. :slightly_smiling_face:

I think this better convey it .

:ok_hand: