The meaning of "yadidaṁ—cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā"

Greetings to everyone.
I am writing a book about Buddhist recitation in the Czech language. The plan is to make an audiobook of it and upload it on my YouTube.

I am struggling with the meaning of this phrase. I would like to explain the meaning of it to my audience. It is part of the Recollection of the Sanga (available in DN 33)

yadidaṁ—cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā
four pairs, the eight individuals.

ChatGpt is telling me that this phrase means that there are eight types of beings in the Sanga.

One on the way to Sotapanna.
Sotapanna.
One of the way to Sakadagami
Sakadagami.
One on the way to Anagami
Anagami.
One on the way to Arahata.
Arahant.

This division somewhat does not make sense because Sotapnna is naturaly on the way to Sakadagami, etc. So technically, this division does not really need to be there. According to ChatGpt, this phrase is there just to stress that the progress on the buddhist path is gradual. Is that correct?

According to this division sotapanna isn’t on the way to sakadagami, he is just sotapanna (although of course apart such division you can say that since sooner or later he will become sakadagami, in certain sense he is on the way to sakadagami. )

But according to this division since he haven’t reached yet the way leading to sakadagami, he is just sotapanna.

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Yes, according to the suttas, they are eight individuals.

I believe in commentary/abhidhamma there is debate around this.

But the suttas are consistent. It’s even possible to give to these eight individuals individually: MN142

They are also listed at AN9.9.

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That kind of negate the Abhidhammic explanation that the gap from the path to fruition is only one mind moment. I was very skeptical when I heard that explanation. I don’t know what’s the point for those who are on the path practising to realize the fruition if it is only one mind moment. If it’s only one mind moment, then it should be automatic, no need to practise at all. Thank you, Bhante. I’ll bring up these 2 suttas when I hear that argument. The reason I read suttas is so that I can win argument in accordance to MN22.

Just kidding :stuck_out_tongue: I don’t like to get into trouble.

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Hi Borek,

The early suttas don’t explain this any further, and there has been some debate on what it actually means, with no firm consensus. The Theravada commentary tradition regards the “way” or “path” as a single mind-moment, but most modern scholars disagree with this. They don’t have a universally accepted interpretation either, however.

I think of it like this:

The insights into a specific stage of the path don’t happen in a single moment. It can take some time for them to assemble in the mind. For example, when the Buddha achieved his awakening, tradition says he did it in three stages of the night; see MN36.

I understand the period of attaining these insights to be the Buddha’s “way to arahata”. During that time he was a specific type of noble person, one who was going to attain full awakening very soon. He wasn’t really a non-returner, because he wasn’t going to reborn in a non-returner realm anymore; but he also wasn’t a full arahant yet, because he still had to have the final insight. So therefore the special status as “on the way to arahata”.

(Leaving aside the issue that the Buddha may have jumped straight to full enlightenment here. His one-night period of getting awakened just illustrates the basic idea.)

So not all anagamis are “on the way to arahata”, in this technical sense. It’s only those whose awakening is very close, those who are breaking through to some of the final insights.

It’s similar for those on the way to stream entry. It can take a few days, even, for the mind to gather all the insights, until true stream entry occurs. Between the initial, irreversible moment that triggers these insight on the one end, and the final complete insight into Dependent Arising on the other end, that’s when they were “on the way” to stream entry. After that, they are full stream enterers. Before that, they were ordinary persons (puthujanna). In between they are neither ordinary persons, nor real stream enterers. They are “those on the path to stream entry”.

As I said, there isn’t too much in the suttas to support this either way. But thinking of it like this, would fit for example the idea that someone on the way to stream entry supposedly will attain stream entry before they pass away. This doesn’t mean they are magically kept alive for years while on the way to stream entry. :slight_smile: It instead means they are so close to full stream entry that if they die, they will gain the final insights into Dependent Arising before moving on to a next life.

That’s how I see it. Sorry there isn’t much more definitively to say based on the early texts themselves.

Good luck with your book!

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Sunyo,

That is a reasonable explanation. The faculties of some beings may be ripe enough to „skip“ some of the stages of enlightenment. Buddha himself is a good example. I will use this explanation in my book. Recollection of the Sanga is a usefull recitation and it is very usefull to have a good idea of the meaning.

All my best for your practice :slightly_smiling_face:

THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. :pray:

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