The nature of the arupa realms

I recently made some edits to the wikipedia article on rebirth. A question that came up was related to how consciousness is said to be dependent on name and form, and vice versa and how consciousness cannot be separated from the other aggregates.

Now, it is well known that there are various passages which discuss this inseparability or deep connection between consciousness and the body (as well as other aggregates). DN 15 states famously that “name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.”

Pañcattaya-sutta (MN 102) states:

Monastics, whatever recluse or brahmin were to proclaim this: “Apart from material form, apart from feeling tone, apart from perception, and apart from volitional formations, I shall describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and its rearising, its growth, its increase, and its maturation”; that is impossible.

The issue I want to raise here is then, given the above principle, what does this say about the arupa realms? The very name “arupa” seems to indicate that it is a realm of existence without form. If we use the principle of least meaning, the word “arupa” should be read as meaning what it says, a place with “no rupa”.

Now it seems we have a contradiction. My question is, are there any EBT passages which help us resolve the contradiction? Or might we have to settle the apparent contradiction by arguing that the above passages only apply to certain realms of existence, but not others?

edit: If I remember correctly, Acarya Malcolm Smith states that in Dzogchen texts, there is always a physical support for consciousness in all realms, even if it is a subtle body made of “wind” (vayu). I guess this is another way to resolve the apparent contradiction.

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Hi Javier.

As I understand teachings of the Buddha and Ajahn Brahm, I would say that “name and form are conditions for consciousness” is a general statement. Nama-rupa usually mean all 5 khandhas, because most of experiences in samsara are 5-khandas experiences. The thing about arupa realms/states is that not all 5 khandhas are present and these are most refined states of being in whole samsara. I’m not sure about sankhara, but surely sanna and vedana is there, even in 3rd arupa and partially in 4th. This is enough - because then consciousness is conditioned by sanna and (neutral in this case) vedana, and that is enough for there to be consciousness.

So sanna and vedana is still “nama-rupa”, even thou it is only 2 part of the 5 khandhas.

Thats also why Nirodha samapatti is called “end of perception and feeling” (and also end of consciousness) - they disappear simultaniously, because they were co-dependently arisen.

So it is simply a matter of words… nama-rupa means all 5 khandas in general. It doesn’t have to mean all of them, just them in general.

I don’t see any other option that would make sense there. Hope this is helpful. :slight_smile:

PS: it is even a little bit more complicated, because usually vinnana is also “nama”. So it seems like in statement “nama-rupa is condition for vinnana” it means: rupa ∨ vedana ∨ sanna ∨ sankhara is condition for vinnana.
Still, even just sanna and vedana is still part of “nama-rupa”, and when it is present, so is vinnana.
And complete end of nama-rupa (sanna and vedana is the final one to vanish) is also simultanious end of vinnana. I think this was main message of the Buddha there.

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I’m not quite certain on the difference between Realms of existence that you speak about, or of mind states where the Khandas are progressively abandoned. But if using the Jhanas as basis, you might find some of the following useful.

SN36.11
"When I said this I was referring to the impermanence of conditions, to the fact that conditions are liable to end, vanish, fade away, cease, and perish.

But I have also explained the progressive cessation of conditions. For someone who has attained the first absorption, speech has ceased. For someone who has attained the second absorption, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected have ceased. For someone who has attained the third absorption, rapture has ceased. For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased. For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite space, the perception of form has ceased. For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite consciousness, the perception of the dimension of infinite space has ceased. For someone who has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness has ceased. For someone who has attained the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. For a mendicant who has ended the defilements, greed, hate, and delusion have ceased.

And I have also explained the progressive stilling of conditions. For someone who has attained the first absorption, speech has stilled. For someone who has attained the second absorption, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected have stilled. … For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have stilled. For a mendicant who has ended the defilements, greed, hate, and delusion have stilled.

There are these six levels of tranquility. For someone who has attained the first absorption, speech has been tranquilized. For someone who has attained the second absorption, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected have been tranquilized. For someone who has attained the third absorption, rapture has been tranquilized. For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has been tranquilized. For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have been tranquilized. For a mendicant who has ended the defilements, greed, hate, and delusion have been tranquilized.”

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SuttaCentral

Early Buddhist texts from the Tipitaka (Tripitaka). Suttas (sutras) with the Buddha’s teachings on mindfulness, insight, wisdom, and meditation.

Also, there is the passage in MN111, which clearly illustrates the absence of the aggregates, while in the 8th Jhana. In all the previous stages there was still perception up until that state, when even perception has ceased

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SuttaCentral

Early Buddhist texts from the Tipitaka (Tripitaka). Suttas (sutras) with the Buddha’s teachings on mindfulness, insight, wisdom, and meditation.

Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, he entered and remained in the dimension of nothingness.

And he distinguished the phenomena in the dimension of nothingness one by one: the perception of the dimension of nothingness and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention. He knew those phenomena as they arose, as they remained, and as they went away. He understood: ‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’ And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’ And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is.

Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he entered and remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness. Then he contemplated the phenomena in that attainment that had passed, ceased, and perished: ‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’ And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’ And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is.

Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, his defilements came to an end.

And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness. Then he contemplated the phenomena in that attainment that had passed, ceased, and perished: ‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’ And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits. He understood: ‘There is no escape beyond.* And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is not.*

*Giving up of the khandas is also discussed in MN106 *

"Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘Sensual pleasures in this life and in lives to come, sensual perceptions in this life and in lives to come, visions in this life and in lives to come, perceptions of visions in this life and in lives to come, perceptions of the imperturbable, and perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; all are perceptions. Where they cease without anything left over, that is peaceful, that is sublime, namely the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is said to be the way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

When he said this, Venerable Ānanda said to the Buddha: “Sir, take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. Would that mendicant become extinguished or not?”

“One such mendicant might become extinguished, Ānanda, while another might not.”

“What is the cause, sir, what is the reason for this?”

“Ānanda, take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. They approve, welcome, and keep clinging to that equanimity. Their consciousness relies on that and grasps it. A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.”

“But sir, what is that mendicant grasping?”

“The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

“Sir, it seems that mendicant is grasping the best thing to grasp!”

“Indeed, Ānanda. For the best thing to grasp is the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

Take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to that equanimity. So their consciousness doesn’t rely on that and grasp it. A mendicant free of grasping becomes extinguished.

“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing! The Buddha has explained to us how to cross over the flood by relying on one support or the other. But sir, what is noble liberation?”

“Ananda, it’s when a mendicant reflects like this: ‘Sensual pleasures in this life and in lives to come, sensual perceptions in this life and in lives to come, visions in this life and in lives to come, perceptions of visions in this life and in lives to come, perceptions of the imperturbable, perceptions of the dimension of nothingness, perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; that is identity as far as identity extends. This is the deathless, namely the liberation of the mind through not grasping.

So, Ānanda, I have taught the ways of practice suitable for attaining the imperturbable, the dimension of nothingness, and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. I have taught how to cross the flood by relying on one support or the other, and I have taught noble liberation.

Out of compassion, I’ve done what a teacher should do who wants what’s best for their disciples. Here are these roots of trees, and here are these empty huts. Practice absorption, Ānanda! Don’t be negligent! Don’t regret it later! This is my instruction to you.”

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, Venerable Ānanda was happy with what the Buddha said."

SuttaCentral

SuttaCentral

Early Buddhist texts from the Tipitaka (Tripitaka). Suttas (sutras) with the Buddha’s teachings on mindfulness, insight, wisdom, and meditation.

Last offering :smiley:
Iti 72 Escape

SuttaCentral

SuttaCentral

Early Buddhist texts from the Tipitaka (Tripitaka). Suttas (sutras) with the Buddha’s teachings on mindfulness, insight, wisdom, and meditation.

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, there are these three elements of escape. What three? The escape from sensual desires, that is, renunciation; the escape from form, that is, the formless; and the escape from whatever has come to be, from whatever is conditioned and dependently arisen, that is, cessation. These, bhikkhus, are the three elements of escape.”

Having known the escape from sensual desires
And the overcoming of forms,
One whose energy is always ardent
Reaches the stilling of all formations.

Such a bhikkhu who sees rightly
Is thereby well released.
Accomplished in knowledge, at peace,
That sage has overcome all bonds.

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The way I make sense of this is that while the dependency between these things is there it can be separated by time gaps.

In other words, these nama-only types of existence are only temporarily distant from rupa-aspects.

Maybe as the auspicious conditions which caused them first thing loose their strength and a less subtle type of existence is brought about. :man_shrugging:t2:

And maybe that was the point the Buddha was trying to make: while such super subtle, immensely long and refined types of existence can be attained there will also be a fall back to some sort of less refined existence disturbed and affected by the inconstancy and uncertainty of the great elements ( mahābhūta, catudhātu).

:anjal:

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I seem to recall Ajahn Brahm saying that the 12 links formula is not for all realms. So specifically for formless realms, the consciousness gives rise to name only, no forms.

The temporary separation of mind with body is possible. It’s just in general that mind and body arises together.

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Formless (arupa) realms is attained by meditative practice called sphere of formless (arupayatana) in the suttas or commonly called as arupajhana in later texts. It is said in the suttas that arupayatana is attained by going totally beyond perception of form (rūpasaññā):

Going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space.
AN 8.66

But what is this “perception of form”? Is it just a “perception” which a meditator who is going beyond it perceives as if he/she has no form and because of the perception of formless he/she can reborn in formless realm? :thinking:

Notice the and in this quote! Apart from all these things: ie, one or the other can be absent from time to time. No contradiction

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For the quoted section Bhikkhu Bodhi’s notes to his translation say “MA points out that this statement is made with reference to those planes of existence where all 5 aggregates exist. In the immaterial planes consciousness occurs without the aggregate of material form, and in the non-percipient plane there is material form without consciousness. But consciousness never occurs without the 3 other mental aggregates”

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Hi Seniya, thanks for your question :slight_smile: but I don’t have any suttas to refer to in answer to it. I’ll leave it to others to find helpful citations :pray:

With Metta :sunflower:

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Thank you, @Viveka, the question is actually not intended to you only, but I accidentally clicked the reply button on your post, where it should be the global reply button in the bottom of this topic page :grin:

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According to SN 12.2 and EA 49.5, nama of namarupa stands for feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention.

In “Rebirth in Early Buddhist Studies, Analayo writes:

“Name-and-form conditions consciousness and consciousness conditions name-and-form.

This statement requires some unpacking. In early Buddhist thought, “consciousness” stands for the mind’s ability to be conscious of something. “Form” represents the material side of experience, which also includes the fine-material dimension of celestial realms recognized in early Buddhist cosmology. “Name” stands for the functions of the mind apart from consciousness. In the context of dependent arising an understanding of name as including consciousness, such as found in later tradition, would not work. On such a reading, the reciprocal conditioning relationship between consciousness and name-and-form would result in presenting consciousness as self conditioning.”

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