The Nature of Vinnana?

In the past, I’ve stated that I thought from your comments you supported the idea of a self-knower or reflexive knowing. This confirms this is the case. On this we differ.

Then you take the self-knower on faith. That is, you don’t actually know this yourself, but you trust the clear and unambiguous statements of others that this is the case. To be very clear, that is not a criticism. I too do not actually know much of anything at all.

You’ve mentioned that this is what you think rigpa is. A self-knowing mind and stated that this is how you understand great meditation teachers to have said about rigpa: that it is a self-knower. Can you offer some Mahayana sutta from the second turning of the wheel that clearly says this? I think the only suttas which declare a self-knower are from the third turning of the wheel which I do not hold as definitive nor do my teachers.

There are famous sutta where the Buddha teaches that the mind cannot know itself just as the sword cannot cut itself nor the finger touch itself. I think these are pretty definitive. BTW, these same arguments also lead to a refutation of a common “mere cessationist” view that the mind is capable of knowing its own destruction. This too would require a self-knower. The refutation of a self-knower is double edged. I tried to point this out here with @Clarity . :joy:

As seen from the links above, the debate about whether a self-knower is possible is very old and you can see the debate has played out across every extent tradition. The debates can be found in the Theravada as well as the ancient schools that initially split up to modern day schools including all the various Tibetan schools where the debate is still controversial today: meaning it hasn’t been settled. IMHO, learning the ins-outs of this debate and the strongest possible reasons and logic of every side and tracing this debate as it has played out over the centuries would be much more beneficial than continuing to debate mere cessation versus eternalism. The former seems a far deeper debate perhaps completely engulfing the latter. But what do I know after all…

:pray: