The Nature of Vinnana?

[Green]

@Dogen

14. "Their past (kamma) is spent, their new (kamma) no more arises, their mind to future becoming is unattached. Their germ (of rebirth-consciousness) has died, they have no more desire for re-living. Those wise men fade out (of existence) as the flame of this lamp (which has just faded away). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness. Ratana Sutta

I’m just saying that, there’s literally hundreds upon hundreds of suttas where Buddha would’ve had the chance to explain something like your perspective, but somehow, just doesn’t. Each one of these passages would be about that Heart you mentioned, and it ain’t.

The fragment you refer to i read: …the khandha’s, -the sankhata aspect or element in our lifes,- will cease. No more fuel to re-arise. This is what it means for me when it is said…they have no desire to re-live. I do not doubt this. I agree with this. I agree with the cessation of the khandha’s.

But how can the asankhata aspect of our lifes,- that what is not a khandha/aggregation-, cease, while it is not even liable to cease…I remind you…also asankhata must be known. Just like sankhata.

What does the Buddha really teach?

“Mendicants, I will teach you the unconditioned (asankhata) and the path that leads to the unconditioned (asankhata). * I will teach you the undefiled and the path to it…the truth and the path to it…the same for… the far shore, the subtle, the very hard to see, the freedom from old age, the constant, the not falling apart, that in which nothing appears, the unproliferated, the peaceful, the freedom from death, the sublime, the state of grace, the sanctuary, the ending of craving, the incredible, the amazing, the untroubled, the not liable to trouble, Nibbana, the unafflicted, dispassion, purity, freedom, not clinging, the island, the protection, the shelter, the refuge …”

So, the Buddha teaches something that is NOT liable to desintegrate…and also the Path to what is not liable to desintegrate…and that is what he called asankhata…also he called it Truth, Nibbana etc.

If a person does not even believe there is the constant, the stable, the not -desintegrating how can he/she align with the Path Buddha teaches because he really teaches that and also the Path towards it.

If they do not even want to arrive here, at the Truth, the unconditioned, that in which nothing appears, does not fall apart…can you be on the Path Buddha teaches?

For me it is irrational to equate asankhata with mere cessation. Absurd.

@Dogen

I think it’s clear that, whatever happens after parinibbāna, is beyond our speech and conventions. So it’s not a very fruitful endeavor.

For a mere cessationalist what happens after a last death is very clear. A flame that extinguishes just does not exist anymore. From being existent it has ceased to exist. This is not beyond our ways of speech at all. We can understand this.

I see why people cannot accept asankhata. Because they feel:
-1. Buddha does not teach anything stable, constant…which does not align with the sutta’s
-2. Asankhata taken as real introduces eternalism…which i do not believe
-3. introduces an atta, which i do not believe.

Asankhata has nothing to do with atta nor eternalism.

[yeshe.tenley]

@Green

Where does this asankhata refer to, according you?

You’ve asked me this several times and I’ve tried to answer. I don’t think it refers to anything at all. Certainly no phenomena like mind or heart which are conditioned. If it is conditioned, then asankhata cannot refer to it. Mind and heart are conditioned. They arise and cease according to conditions. All phenomena are like this.

I understand the desire to pin down asankhata as a thing that we can reference. I understand the desire to find some thing that might be unconditioned or not subject to causes and conditions, but I cannot find any such thing no matter how hard I look. I get that this is unsatisfying to you and so you wish to call mind asankhata or heart asankhata, but this just does not work to my limited mind.

I’ll go back to an image that popped into my head reading the myriad threads on this forum debating what asankhata and nibbana refer to:

Imagine a group of monkeys in a room all with their hands in a monkey trap furiously grabbing at some delectable something that is in their grasp. All the monkeys are arguing. Why? They are debating about what that thing is in their grasp… how it feels, the odor wafting from it, what it might taste like, what it might sound like, what it might look like etc. They give it names and argue on whose name and description is the most precise. All of them are just soooo sure that if they could only find a way to get their hands out of the trap and show all the other monkeys the treasure; they’d win the argument and have the treasure!

That’s how I envision these debates/questions/threads about what asankhata and nibbana refer to.

[Green]

@yeshe.tenley

@Green

Where does this asankhata refer to, according you?

You’ve asked me this several times and I’ve tried to answer. I don’t think it refers to anything at all.

I just shared a (serie of) sutta’s, from SN43, in which Buddha shows that the unconditioned, asankhata, is for him a synonym for the stable, the constant, the not desintegrating, peace, the truth, Nibbana, the other shore etc…

If you do not want to rely on one sutta to see and know what asankhata means:

DN34 also says two elements must be thorougly known…sankhata and asankahta

MN115 says: "There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”

I know, you always think my only goal is to win…like @Jasudho also does. I will not denie that when the things i share are constantly denied, battled, ignored, undermined, and also my motives are constant questioned, i become irritated. That is a flaw, i admit, work in progress.
But maybe you can also have some trust that i, like all of us here, do not want to distort the teachings. I also study, reflect, meditate and for my own feeling share things of which i feel they are useful.

For me it is not difficult to see that the asankhata element refers to an element of emptiness, openess, dispassion, peace, stillness, something that cannot be grasped or even traced and that is never absent in our lifes. It does not have to be made or created. Just remove all mental noise and immediately stillness is there. Remove all coarseness and the subtle is immediately there. Remove all that causes burden and there is immediately unburdeness. Remove all heat and there is immediately coolness.
Remove all what can agitate mind and there is immediately peace.

Not that it arises at that moment. It is never like that. It was there all the time. It only becomes more and more apparant. One does not make peace, Nibbana, stilness, the Truth, coolness, the end of suffering. Such ideas are delusional. One can only remove all defilements and the natural result is peace, Nibbana, coolness.

Asankhata cannot be seen arising. It is not like a formation seen arising.

Seeing only formations arising and ceasing is like an eye who sees a lot of external things, but is never a moment aware of its own existence and ability to see. It is like it has only an external focus. It is blinded towards her own existence and seeing ability. Ignorant about her own existence. Mind can be like that, i believe. Mind can see formations arising but be totally ignorant about her own knowing ability. her own knowing nature which is, i believe, a pure receptiveness. The most subtle nature of mind is its receptiveness, that surely does not even end when one is unconscious.
That receptiveness is stable, it is not like sense vinnana’s that arises and ceases. It is also not some personal self.

@yeshe.tenley

That’s how I envision these debates/questions/threads about what asankhata and nibbana refer to.

I know that. I do my best Yeshe.