I think a clear definition of anything in general helps insuring that people talk about the same thing… and also get a bit clearer within themselves what they are talking about.
() Ruth
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… “under normal development/circumstances” some people have never produced sperm, do not produce eggs, are probably not “a mix of female and male traits”.
Do those people have gender?
Is gender a transitory trait for most “women”, and never a trait for some?
Do men who produce no sperm have no gender?This biological definition based on sperm, or other impermanent characteristics, seems problematic, because if those characteristics, it seems that there’s only lingering mental fabrication to define gender.
It seems a problem of logic. Either
- if X is not there, Y cannot be there,
OR- if X is there or not there, it does not determine if Y is present, except under a construct view called Normal.
I was strictly discussing sex, apart from when i mentioned the genders acknowledged in the EBT and the Vinaya.
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For science it is very important. Its is also important to understand how the EBT and Vinaya view sex and gender so we can understand that literature.
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Greetings Ruth and welcome to the forum 
If you have any questions or we can help with anything please just feel free to ask. You can tag @moderators either in posts or via Personal Message
Enjoy!
With metta
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The greater part of wisdom in MN44 vastly dwarfs the fact that the speaker was a nun. Of the 3032 words in MN44 there are only 4 occurrences of “nun”.
Are there parts of the EBT we should be referencing here to improve our understanding and discussion in context?
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I think it’s quite important to understand that that sutta was spoken by a nun.
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Erm OK. 
I did indeed choose this one as a clear example that nuns offer great wisdom. It’s actually this particular sutta that has me favor contemporary bhikkhuni ordination. I think Ayya Dhammadina may have actually been teaching her former husband Visākha in this discourse. Her insight exceeded his.
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Yes that was my point. It shows that women are just as capable of awakening as men. The opposition to Bikkhuni ordination isn’t about their ability. It’s a debate around the Vinaya legality of the ordinations and if that matters.
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It does absolutely matter for lay people considering ordination. I personally would favor bhikkhuni-inclusive teachers since such teachers would support the inclusiveness I value. I do not see exclusion as helping to end suffering. And if there were only bhikkhuni-excluding teachers left in the world, then I would wander alone, a tusker in the wilderness.
MN128:6.38: It’s better to wander alone, there’s no fellowship with fools. Wander alone and do no wrong, at ease like a tusker in the wilds.”
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Ordination lineage is probably getting off topic here. However, apart from any other arguments, from an EBT point of view the lineage was well-preserved in East Asia, and, in fact, a number of ordinations in South-East Asia and elsewhere were made possible by the participation of East Asian Bhikshunis.
It does absolutely matter for lay people considering ordination. I personally would favor bhikkhuni-inclusive teachers since such teachers would support the inclusiveness I value. I do not see exclusion as helping to end suffering. And if there were only bhikkhuni-excluding teachers left in the world, then I would wander alone, a tusker in the wilderness.
I think its best we change our views to fit the Vinaya and the Dhamma rather than make the Dhamma and Vinaya fit our views. Of course we do not want monks to be willfully exclusionary just for the sake of it however, for me at least, I do want them to be strict when it comes to matters of monastic law. If Vinaya law supports or opposes said ordinations is a different topic, but i don’t think allowing for bikkhuni ordinations simply because we like to be inclusive is a good idea. If it goes against the Vinaya or the Dhamma then it should not be done, regardless of what we might feel about it. If it doesn’t go against the Vinaya or Dhamma then it is allowed.
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Yet the Buddha gave no commandments, only training rules.
Examine for youself, even the Buddha’s words; was this not His instruction? What criteria for evaluation did He recommend?
Very tired, if someone could offer citation(s) & links for us to study, it would be a gift.
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It is the formation of views that needs the exploration…
V/S 
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But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma?”—“There might be, friends.
“When, friends, a noble disciple understands being, the origin of being, the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of being, in that way he is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.
“And what is being, what is the origin of being, what is the cessation of being, what is the way leading to the cessation of being? There are these three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, fine-material being, and immaterial being. With the arising of clinging there is the arising of being. With the cessation of clinging there is the cessation of being. The way leading to the cessation of being is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration
MN9
Whatever mental fixation, insistence, clinging in terms of view or craving is the basis of action/specific responses(kammabhava) . And Consequently future birth.
Actually gender might be a good case where all four categories of upadana may be demonstrated,
sense-pleasure clinging (kamupadana)
views clinging (ditthupadana)
rites&rituals clinging (silabbatupadana)
self-doctrine clinging (attavadupadana).
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Sila = moral/virtue.
bbata = custom.
upadana = clinging.
silabbatupadana = clinging to moral rituals, clinging to morality.
The idea is more around thinking that morality alone is sufficient for liberation, rather than simply clinging to “rites and rituals” in a superstitious sense. As such I don’t see how gender is relevant to it.
It has the same consequence. It is a basis of action.
I have considered what you have said and studied further. Now I have seen this and will follow my heart:
SN41.7:6.2: Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits.
May all our hearts be limitless. Gender is a limit. Let us go beyond.
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Like using a Super computer to run Raspberry Pi (OS).
Thankfully the Dhamma and Vinaya is decisively in support of such inclusiveness. I suggest you follow your own advice and adjust your views to fit.
We should all change our views to fit the Vinaya and Dhamma. I agree.
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