The proper attitude when faced with uncertainty?

Hi Friends!

Speaking as a lowly-being… what do my fellow lowly-beings think of this method of dealing with uncertainty?

“Here’s my goal. Right now, I’m the only one who doesn’t understand Quantum Mechanics. In about seven days all of you will be unable to understand Quantum Mechanics. Then you can go back and spread your ignorance everywhere else.”

What do you think about adopting something like this as an attitude towards Dhamma if you’re a lowly being like myself? :joy:

It is my goal to one day not understand Dhamma as well as those who’ve gone far ahead of me :rofl:

FWIW, Quantum Mechanics - even though no one gets it - is an extremely useful and skillful thing to not get. I think Dhamma too :joy: :rofl:

:pray:

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Work diligently towards Enlightenment. A whole new world will open up, and you may be given the understanding that you need. Not that you would show it off any more than that professor does, however.

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Its a nice icebreaker for the class. The person lecturing is Prof. R. Shankar of Yale. He has written one of the most popular textbooks on Quantum Mechanics! :grin: What he is not saying is that there are levels and levels of ignorance!

His entire course with about 20 videos is on youtube.

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Thank you @trusolo for identifying this Professor!

For anyone who has studied QM formally as well as the various interpretations a few things are often noticed:

  1. The formalism is the same regardless of the interpretation
  2. The formalism can be used skillfully for a myriad number of scientific and technological applications with nary a wit of interpretation
  3. This hasn’t prevented endless debates (often quite heated!) on what the true interpretation is or should be :joy:

Seems analogous to Dhamma to me in some respects :pray:

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@yeshe.tenley
Thanks for the vid - it made me :rofl:

One of my professors said to us students that we should keep investigating “to be confused but on a higher level” - so that is somewhat in line of what trusolo said and I personall think it is very good advice.
From what I watched on youtube, physisists who deal with the quantum stuff are pretty humble because nobody really knows what’s going on. I get these sort-of-vibes also from Anton Zeilinger e.g.

I think this is the right thread to recommend Wittgenstein’s “On certainty”.
How to skillfully handle doubt in regard to language.

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Certainty is the enemy of learning. :pray:

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Thanks I need to put that link on the site for my QM class… Shankar is certainly a famous and smart guy who knows what he’s talking about… :rofl:

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Yes, during my lifetime I’ve witnessed a change in attitude regarding such things as quantum entanglement from “this is weird” to “what can we do with it?” Of course, the attitude “what can we do with it?” also underlies earlier applications, including many of the game changing devices of the 20th century such as lasers and semiconductor devices…

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The Buddha gave us several teachings on facing uncertainty.

“Bhāradvāja, first you took your stand on faith, now you speak of oral tradition. There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Under these conditions it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”

“But, Master Gotama, in what way is there the preservation of truth? How does one preserve truth? We ask Master Gotama about the preservation of truth.”

“If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.

“If a person approves of something…if he receives an oral tradition…if he reaches a conclusion based on reasoned cogitation…if he gains a reflective acceptance of a view, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My reflective acceptance of a view is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way too, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.”

-MN 95 (excerpt)

“There are, sir, some ascetics and brahmins who come to Kesamutta. They explain and promote only their own doctrine, while they attack, badmouth, disparage, and smear the doctrines of others. Then some other ascetics and brahmins come to Kesamutta. They too explain and promote only their own doctrine, while they attack, badmouth, disparage, and smear the doctrines of others. So, sir, we’re doubting and uncertain: ‘I wonder who of these respected ascetics and brahmins speaks the truth, and who speaks falsehood?’”

“It is enough, Kālāmas, for you to be doubting and uncertain. Doubt has come up in you about an uncertain matter.

Please, Kālāmas, don’t go by oral transmission, don’t go by lineage, don’t go by testament, don’t go by canonical authority, don’t rely on logic, don’t rely on inference, don’t go by reasoned train of thought, don’t go by the acceptance of a view after deliberation, don’t go by the appearance of competence, and don’t think ‘The ascetic is our respected teacher.’ But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are unskillful, blameworthy, criticized by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to harm and suffering’, then you should give them up.

What do you think, Kālāmas? Does greed come up in a person for their welfare or harm?”

“Harm, sir.”

“A greedy individual, overcome by greed, kills living creatures, steals, commits adultery, lies, and encourages others to do the same. Is that for their lasting harm and suffering?”

“Yes, sir.”

“What do you think, Kālāmas? Does hate come up in a person for their welfare or harm?”

“Harm, sir.”

“A hateful individual, overcome by hate, kills living creatures, steals, commits adultery, lies, and encourages others to do the same. Is that for their lasting harm and suffering?”

“Yes, sir.”

“What do you think, Kālāmas? Does delusion come up in a person for their welfare or harm?”

“Harm, sir.”

“A deluded individual, overcome by delusion, kills living creatures, steals, commits adultery, lies, and encourages others to do the same. Is that for their lasting harm and suffering?”

“Yes, sir.”

“What do you think, Kālāmas, are these things skillful or unskillful?”

“Unskillful, sir.”

“Blameworthy or blameless?”

“Blameworthy, sir.”

“Criticized or praised by sensible people?”

“Criticized by sensible people, sir.”

“When you undertake them, do they lead to harm and suffering, or not? Or how do you see this?”

“When you undertake them, they lead to harm and suffering. That’s how we see it.”

“So, Kālāmas, when I said: ‘Please, don’t go by oral transmission, don’t go by lineage, don’t go by testament, don’t go by canonical authority, don’t rely on logic, don’t rely on inference, don’t go by reasoned train of thought, don’t go by the acceptance of a view after deliberation, don’t go by the appearance of competence, and don’t think “The ascetic is our respected teacher.” But when you know for yourselves: “These things are unskillful, blameworthy, criticized by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to harm and suffering”, then you should give them up.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

-AN 3.65 (excerpt)

There is also a sutta (or suttas) that talks about going to see one’s wise friends and companions when confused about the teachings and asking them to help clear up one’s doubts. I don’t remember the reference, so perhaps someone can post it.

There’s also the fourth precept. Say you know when you know and you don’t know when you don’t know. Don’t say you know when you don’t know and you don’t know when you know. I think this can be applied internally as well. Being really truthful about your thoughts and tendencies is hard. It’s certainly a work in progress for me.

Ajahn Jayasaro’s Yellow Page Teaching (Vol 1, page 66) really resonates with me. I often uncover things I did not want to admit were present in my mind. Developing humility is really important.

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My experience is most who don’t stick to some dogma of an interpretation come out as instrumentalists in the end. Of course, that is separate from the measurement problem: ie, regardless of interpretation people break down on whether they regard it as a problem or not. :pray:

Well, unlike any scientific theory or metaphysical view, in Dhamma it’s not only possible to go beyond doubt and uncertainty, it’s the very goal, and the very way to achieve that certainty is to find and eliminate your own ignorance - to replace ignorance with understanding. But you can’t seek understanding without being certain that you don’t understand, or at least without some uncertainty about it. For what is delusion if not non-understanding of the fact of non-understanding - if not certainty without actual understanding?

Edit: The Path Starts with Self Honesty

This brings out the topic of honest faith. In faith, we are taught to believe in good things. I think the definition of good faith is believing in good things, and having a strong commitment to them. Like faith between two partners, or faith in the Sangha, or the Buddhadhamma, or in the Tathagata Himself.

Full knowledge is certainly needed too, but I believe faith is important when it comes to being honest with oneself, and having an equal regarding of one between all living entities. Not to be conceited, I believe faith in the Dhamma is quite important, and faith in oneself, because belief in the goodness of Shakyamuni’s message, that belief, if non-regressive, has proven to create Stream Enterers as well as those who understand, in full knowledge, the unabridged Dhamma of the Buddha. Namaste.