The shortest path to eradicate Mana (self-view) is to bow down to someone!

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The shortest path to eradicate Mana (self-view) is to bow down to someone!

It’s from Vinaya

“We, Lord, are Sakyans, we are proud. Lord, this barber, Upāli, has been our attendant for a long time. May the Lord let him go forth first. We will greet him, rise up before him, salute him with joined palms, and do the proper duties. Thus will the Sakyan pride be humbled in us Sakyans.” Then the Lord let Upāli the barber go forth first, and afterwards these young Sakyan men.
Vin 2.183; BD 5.257.

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This passage is talking about diminishing pride not eradicating self-view.
Eradicating self-view is a much bigger task than diminishing pride IMHO.

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What is the Pali word for pride?
Perhaps Bhante @Brahmali can help me in this.

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There’s no need to ping Ajahn every time you need to look up a word. He’s a Venerable Elder, not a dictionary, @SarathW1

From the Pāli-English Dictionary

pride : (m.) mada; māsa; dappa; ahaṅkāra. (nt.) pāgabbhiya. (v.t.) (oneself upon : ) vikattheti; attānaṃ ukkaṃseti. (pp.) vikatthita; attānaṃ ukkaṃsita.

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@SarathW1, māna is conceit / pride or however you want to translate it, but self-view is sakkāyadiṭṭhi. I think you may have confused the two in the title of the thread. :wink:

Actually, self-view is a lower fetter, eradicated at stream-entry, and pride a higher fetter, eradicated when you reach arahantship.

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I can’t find pride in Abhidhamma.
The closest I get is conceit.

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  1. Conceit ( maana ) is self-evaluation which arises from comparing oneself with another as better, equal or inferior.
    The Abhidhamma in Practice

==============
Conceit is the eight fetter.

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Actually I like to know the Pali word used in Vinaya in this particular case.

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Oh that’s true! I wonder why Buddhadatta didn’t list that in his dictionary entry… :thinking:

Is there a better English->Pāli Dictionary I should use instead?

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It’s helpful, but I’m afraid everyone in Sri Lanka will be Arahanths if this was true!

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I’m experiencing a spot of logical difficulty imagining how pride can persist if there is no self view. I’m sure there are wise ones here who can explain.

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Hi @Gillian ,

This is how the ven. bhikkhu Bodhi has explained the difference between the conceit ‘I am’ (asmi-māna) and the view of self (sakkāyadiṭṭhi):

“The view of self affirms an enduring self existing in relation to the five aggregates, either as identical with them, or as their inner core, or as their owner and master. But the conceit “I am” lacks a clear conceptual content. It lurks at the base of the mind as a vague, shapeless, but imperious sense of the “I” as a concrete reality. Though the view of self is already eliminated at the stage of stream-entry, the conceit “I am” persists in noble disciples even up to the stage of nonreturner. This is the point of the incisive Khemaka Sutta…” -In the Buddha’s Words (2005:380).

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It is like, even if you wash a cloth thorougly with soap powder you still have the smell of the soap powder. So you have to add some sents to make a sense of more purity.
Deava and Bahma has a very subtle pride.

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Agree.
But if you compare Westener to a Sri Lankan they have less pride.
Many Westerners have a strong superiority complex.
For instance if you go to Japn even kids bow down to strangers.

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Thank you for helpful responses @Leon and @SarathW1. The notion of a gradual wearing away makes total sense. :sun_with_face: The discussion above was a tadge confusing. :thinking:

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It’s like knowing for the first time smoking is bad for you. You keep at it despite the right view, as craving and attachment is still intact. Vipallasa are removed at level of views first, then at mind/defilements level and finally at sanna level, sort of…

Defilements are irrational! But apart from that the stream entrant attains right view and yet her cravings remain intact. The tenacious nature of defilements shouldn’t be underestimated.

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Imo both are the same .
Conceit = identity view .

I know many will disagree , however ,

Let’s see what the text says .

  1. Conceit

Sn 35.108

I am superior

“When there is the eye, bhikkhus, by clinging to the eye, by adhering to the eye, the thought occurs: ‘I am superior’ or ‘I am equal’ or ‘I am inferior.’ When there is the ear … When there is the mind, by clinging to the mind, by adhering to the mind, the thought occurs: ‘I am superior’ or ‘I am equal’ or ‘I am inferior.’

  1. Identity view

Sn 22.82

Puṇṇamasutta

They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
…
consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self,
or self in consciousness.
viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati,viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ; attani vāviññāṇaṃ, viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

That’s how identity view comes about.
”Evaṃ kho, bhikkhu, sakkāyadiṭṭhi hotī”ti.

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Is this equal to

?

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“When there is the eye, bhikkhus, by clinging to the eye, by adhering to the eye, the thought occurs: ‘I am superior’ or ‘I am equal’ or ‘I am inferior.’

Please see for yourself

The clinging to the form as I am ,
And regard the form as self .

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Fyi , above understanding came through learning from bhikkhu vupasama .

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Khemaka Sutta.