SuttaCentral

The shortest path to eradicate Mana (self-view) is to bow down to someone!


#21

SarathW1

This is a problematic text (khemaka).
You can refer to SN22.81 for comparison .


#22

Agree.
According to Khemaka sutta pride was termed as residual conceit. In other words self-view is a pride in a different degree. (perhaps higher degree)


#23

Clinging to the eye, leads to
Eye is my self, leads to
I am better/worse/equal.


#25

The story of the Stuck-Up.


#26

I found the answers to this question informative: How are ‘conceit’ and ‘identity-view’ not the same?


#27

The problem in this case is because almost everyone taking for granted everything in the text .
Do you hold that ending of conceit is arhat or ending of ignorance is arhat ?
Which is which ? Which one first being eliminated ?


#28

There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters and five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts [stream entrants] and; practices, sensual desire, &; ill will [once returner & non-returner]. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, &; ignorance. These are the five higher fetters [arahanth]. And these are the ten fetters." Sanyojana Sutta: Fetters

Self view occurs at the level of the stream entrant.


#29

Now you have 5 , 7 ,( 9 ), 10 fetters .
The investigative mind is not present ,
one see that kalama sutta is not applicable here , hindrance now turn fetter . The lion is not roaring I guess .

Please note that MN64 never mentioned five higher fetters .
Note one is in the formless realm such as of base of nothingness and destroyed the five lower fetters , all formless attainer reborn in lower realm(pure abode) .

done here .

Regards

Saṃyojana Sutta AN 7.8

Mendicants, there are these seven fetters.

The fetters of attraction, repulsion, views, doubt, conceit, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.

Mahāmālukya Sutta MN 64

Again, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness.

then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.”


#30

It’s seeing the drawbacks of experiencing, that results in nibbana (the attainment of the dimension of nothingness only leads to rebirth in a formless realm -arupa loka after which there will be endless rebirth in other realms):

Again, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness.
Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna. MN64

Some descriptions of fetters have desire for the formless realm, rather than the ones below:

There are these three cravings. Which three? Craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. These are the three cravings." — Iti 58

The Buddha might be smart enough to include all the fetters as one:

What traps us in samsara
“Monks, I don’t envision even one other fetter — fettered by which beings conjoined go wandering and transmigrating on for a long, long time — like the fetter of craving. Fettered with the fetter of craving, beings conjoined go wandering and transmigrating on for a long, long time.”
Iti 15

Here’s a 9 fetter description:

[The Buddha admonished me:]
Gutta, devote yourself to the goal
for which you went forth,
having discarded [hope]
for a dear son of your own.
Don’t fall under the sway
of the mind.

Hoodwinked by mind,
beings in love with Mara’s realm,
roam
through the many-birth wandering-on,
unknowing.

Abandoning these lower fetters, nun —
sensual desire, ill will,
self-identity views,
grasping at precepts & practices,
and uncertainty as the fifth —
you won’t come
to this again.

Forsaking passion, conceit,
ignorance, & restlessness
—cutting through [all] the fetters —
you will make an end
of suffering & stress.

Discarding birth & wandering-on,
comprehending further becoming,
free from hunger
in the right-here-&-now
you will go about
totally calmed.Gutta

I think there’s a very understandable tendency to make our targets easier to reach! However if it’s watered down we might not be reaching the target we think we are headed for. Instead we might have ‘false claim’ of being an arahanth. I would rather know exactly what is required for me to be an arahanth rather than going for a watered down ‘arahanth lite’ version, with only five fetters. Any case it should be apparent that that is a non-returner (to this world). When fetters of cravings and aversion is weakened, they are once returners. It seems there’s no fixed description of the numbers of fetters but I find an EBT which is more descriptive in terms of number of fetters more useful for practicing!