Or there is the possibility that the Buddha wasn’t interested in making an argument about something beyond direct experience (he does refuse to answer various philosophical questions), and just gave instructions on how to practice with what could be experienced (in this case the khandha classification).
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Yes, that’s the sort of thing I was thinking of. It seems to be very common in the Thai Forest groups, from Ajahn Mun onwards. And, of course, it may well be a very useful way of approaching practice. I’m no expert on this, so I don’t want to say much more, but it certainly comes up in discussions such as this thread I started:
To some extent, it is nothing wrong if you hold such a normal discourse of “self”: This is my will, my money, my body … even though you do not have total control over it and the ability to change it.
The teachings of anatta “not-self”, such as “this is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self” (n’etam mama, n’eso 'ham asmi, na m’eso attaa ti) in the SN/SA suttas, have different focus and understanding to see and to know self “atta” “atman”, for overcoming dukkha in daily life.
What is “the correct atman”?
Do you consider there is something “beneath” the aggregates is logical?
There are just eleven (11) posts available before this thread reaches 200. Since it seems to be meandering around and moving away from discussion of the EBTs the moderators will close the thread when it is seen that 200 post have been made. … So please make sure that your remaining contributions are substantial ones! 
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I find this arbitrary and think the discussion was actually quite close to the logic to the suttas. Oops, only 10 posts left.
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When we use such terms as “the one who knows,” it is important to understand that this is a colloquial usage. In no way is some kind of true self or super-entity implied—it’s merely a convenient figure of speech. If we start looking for “who” it is that is aware we rapidly end up in a tangle of self-view.
https://www.lionsroar.com/like-oil-and-water/
What is the cause, sir, what is the reason why the aggregate of form is found? What is the cause, what is the reason why the aggregate of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness is found?”
“The four primary elements are the reason why the aggregate of form is found. Contact is the reason why the aggregates of feeling, perception, and choices are found. Name and form are the reasons why the aggregate of consciousness is found.
Sir, how does identity view come about?”
“It’s because an uneducated ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. They regard feeling … perception … choices … consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness. That’s how identity view comes about.”
Sir, what’s the gratification, the drawback, and the escape when it comes to form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?”
…
“The pleasure and happiness that arise from form: this is its gratification. That form is impermanent, suffering, and perishable: this is its drawback. Removing and giving up desire and greed for form: this is its escape. The pleasure and happiness that arise from feeling … perception … choices … consciousness: this is its gratification. That consciousness is impermanent, suffering, and perishable: this is its drawback. Removing and giving up desire and greed for consciousness: this is its escape.
…
Sir, how does one know and see so that there’s no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for this conscious body and all external stimuli?”“One truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, all consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ That’s how to know and see so that there’s no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for this conscious body and all external stimuli.”
…
So it seems, good sir, that form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. Then what self will the deeds done by not-self affect?”Then the Buddha, knowing what that monk was thinking, addressed the mendicants:
“It’s possible that some foolish person here—unknowing and ignorant, their mind dominated by craving—thinks they can overstep the teacher’s instructions. They think:
‘So it seems, good sir, that form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. Then what self will the deeds done by not-self affect?’ Now, mendicants, you have been educated by me in questioning with regards to all these things in all such cases.
Venerable Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer.’”
“I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view. How, indeed, could one—moving forward by himself, moving back by himself —say: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’? What do you think, brahmin, is there an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?”
“Just so, Venerable Sir.”
“When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings clearly discerned?”
“Just so, Venerable Sir.”
“So, brahmin, when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer.
…
So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one—moving forward by himself, moving back by himself—say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”
Mendicants, if there were no gratification in form, sentient beings wouldn’t love it. But because there is gratification in form, sentient beings do love it. If form had no drawback, sentient beings wouldn’t grow disillusioned with it. But because form has a drawback, sentient beings do grow disillusioned with it. If there were no escape from form, sentient beings wouldn’t escape from it. But because there is an escape from form, sentient beings do escape from it.
…
But when sentient beings truly understand these five grasping aggregates’ gratification, drawback, and escape for what they are, they’ve escaped from this world—with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans—and they live detached, liberated, with a mind free of limits.”
There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu—apart from faith … apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it—can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth … there is no more for this state of being.’ And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: ‘There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“Aren’t these things to be understood by seeing them with wisdom?”
“Yes, venerable sir.”
When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away—noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.
“And furthermore, monks, when the monk is established in these five qualities, there are four additional qualities he should develop: He should develop [contemplation of] the unattractive so as to abandon lust. He should develop good will so as to abandon ill will. He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, ‘I am.’ For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, ‘I am’—Unbinding in the here & now.”
An educated noble disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They don’t regard form … feeling … perception … choices … or consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness. They don’t keep running and circling around form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. By not doing so, they’re freed from form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. They’re freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re freed from suffering, I say.
Monks, the idea of not self if cultivated and made much of, is of great fruit and great profit.
And how cultivated and made much of is the idea of not self of great fruit and great profit?
Herein a monk cultivates the limb of wisdom that is mindfulness, accompanied by the idea of not self which is based on seclusion, on dispassion, on cessation, which ends in self-surrender.
…
He cultivates the limb of wisdom that is not self, accompanied by the idea of not self which is based on seclusion, on dispassion, on cessation, which ends in self-surrender.
…
If the idea of not self be thus cultivated, thus made much of, one may look for one of two fruits even in this very life, to wit: realization, or, if there be any substrate left, at any rate the state of non-return.
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Thus cultivated, monks, thus made much of, the idea of not self conduces to great peace from bondage.
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Thus cultivated, monks, thus made much of, the idea of not self conduces great pleasantness of living.
Bhikkhus, by directly knowing and fully understanding the all, by developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is capable of destroying suffering.
“And what, bhikkhus, is that all by directly knowing and fully understanding which, by developing dispassion towards which and abandoning which, one is capable of destroying suffering?
“By directly knowing and fully understanding the eye … the mind … and whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … by developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is capable of destroying suffering.
“This, bhikkhus, is the all by directly knowing and fully understanding which … one is capable of destroying suffering.
Why is it, venerable sir, that when the Blessed One was questioned by the wanderer Vacchagotta, he did not answer?”
“If, Ānanda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, ‘Is there a self?’ I had answered, ‘There is a self,’ this would have been siding with those ascetics and brahmins who are eternalists. And if, when I was asked by him, ‘Is there no self?’ I had answered, ‘There is no self,’ this would have been siding with those ascetics and brahmins who are annihilationists.
“If, Ānanda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, ‘Is there a self?’ I had answered, ‘There is a self,’ would this have been consistent on my part with the arising of the knowledge that ‘all phenomena are nonself’?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“And if, when I was asked by him, ‘Is there no self?’ I had answered, ‘There is no self,’ the wanderer Vacchagotta, already confused, would have fallen into even greater confusion, thinking, ‘It seems that the self I formerly had does not exist now."
This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality—upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.
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That is useful. However, prior to that, Ajahn Amaro does say:
Enlightenment, liberation, depends on the recognition of the radical separateness of awareness—“the one who knows” as Ajahn Chah would phrase it—and the world of the five khandhas (Sanskrit: skandhas ).
Does this have some EBT support? Almost all of the quotes in that article are from Thai Ajahns…
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I don’t know about the connections to EBT, and they might be regarded as “Thai Ajahns” also, but I come to trust that all of them have been under direct training by an enlightened master. And enlightened beings are not this or that …
OK, I probably should have included a Bhikkhu Analayo-style disclaimer: “Just because it’s a later development doesn’t mean it’s not useful”.
However, I understood this site to be focused on EBTs, hence the line of questioning.
Remember that if anyone, or group, wish to discuss things you are welcome to use the PM facility for this. This is a good tool for issues that are not directly linked to EBT’s or on areas of personal practice etc, as per the guidelines.
Just FYI There was consideration made to an automatic limiting of posts to 20 per thread … (this was felt to be too rigid - but there is a limit)
The reason is to keep threads on track of the OP. To remember that the threads are archived with a search function to provide answers to questions and issues with the EBT’s, rather than to be a general chat facility
At 200 posts, the thread becomes inaccessible, as participation really requires having read and considered all prior posts (not like a running chat). Additionally it has moved a long way from the original OP which was quite specific.
The Dukkha of a moderated forum…
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((Edited after Ven Dhammanando’s input…see posts below…don’t want to lock the thread))
Perhaps, perhaps not
It depends on what is meant by ‘Awareness’, in the context of use by the forest Ajahns.
If it refers to a kind of Sanna, then the following EBT passage may be describing the same kind of thing.
AN9.37
2.3The eye itself is actually present, and so are those sights. Yet one will not experience that sense-field.2.4The ear itself is actually present, and so are those sounds. Yet one will not experience that sense-field. 2.5The nose itself is actually present, and so are those smells. Yet one will not experience that sense-field. 2.6The tongue itself is actually present, and so are those tastes. Yet one will not experience that sense-field. 2.7The body itself is actually present, and so are those touches. Yet one will not experience that sense-field.”
3.1When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to Venerable Ānanda:
3.2“Reverend Ānanda, is one who doesn’t experience that sense-field actually percipient or not?”
3.3“Reverend, one who doesn’t experience that sense-field is actually percipient, not non-percipient.”
So, there is the percipience, but no Observer can be found…
Only global Mindfulness/ Awareness exists at that point… Becoming one with The All, The Void, The Emptiness that contains everything else, Realizing Nibbana/// Samsara, Brahaman/// Atman, Uniting with The Universe, Becoming one with God, Advaita, The Dao, Infinite Interconnection… or whatever name you choose to give an ultimate experience which is beyond the scope of language.
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But Mike’s query was about whether there is EBT support for the notion of a “radical separateness of awareness” as posited by Ajahn Amaro. Your sutta passage doesn’t show any such thing, for it continues:
“But what does one who doesn’t experience that sense-field perceive?”
“It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. One who doesn’t experience that sense-field perceives in this way.
What cognizes the dimension of infinite space is the the common-or-garden fifth aggregate, not something radically separate from the aggregates.
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Yes, I agree with that… But what about the percipience described in the last paragraph?
Sister, regarding the immersion that does not lean forward or pull back, and is not held in place by forceful suppression.
8.3Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, one is not anxious. 8.4The Buddha said that the fruit of this immersion is enlightenment.’ 8.5One who doesn’t experience that sense-field perceives in this way, too.”
Or here …
AN10.7
“On one occasion, friend Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Sāvatthī in the Blind Men’s Grove. There I attained such a state of concentration that I was not percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but I was still percipient.”5“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”
6“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception an.v.10 arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”
What is that which perceives Enlightenment/ Nibbana?
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In both cases, saññā.
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I.e. not something outside of the aggregates?
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Indeed.
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Please begin a new thread to address any ongoing issues It might also be worthwhile to check previous existing threads that have looked at this issue. We have a treasure trove of knowledge stored here
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