The three similes of MN36, MN85, and MN100

sabbamitta · February 26, 2025, 5:24pm

In MN36, MN85, and MN100 there is a series of three similes, where attachment to the senses is compared to logs that lie in the water, lie on dry land but are still wet, and lie on dry land and are dry.

The conclusion from the similes seems to be that austere practices are not relevant for attaining knowledge and vision, but rather detachment from sensual pleasures.

Nevertheless, in all three suttas, after thinking of these similes, the bodhisatta moves on to the most austere of practices (resuming in the end, “no-one has done more than this”). This seems rather illogical. It would make much more sense if the similes would come after the austere practices, and would lead on to the finally successful practice of the jhānas, which is done “secluded from sensual pleasures”.

Are there any hints of a textual corruption that mixed up the order of the sections? What do the Chinese parallels say? @cdpatton ?

As an aside note (I’ll mention it again in the relevant thread): the term upama is translated “simile” in the introduction and conclusion of the series, and “example” in-between.

Christopher · February 26, 2025, 6:19pm

Nice to see you, Ayya! I hope you’re well and happy.

I remember Venerable Anālayo discussing this in A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikāya. Here’s the relevant part from his discussion of MN36:

This part of the Mahāsaccaka-sutta recurs in two Pali discourses in the Majjhima-nikāya and has two Chinese parallels, one of which occurs in the Ekottarika-āgama, while the other is an individual translation. A description of the same events can also be found in the Lalitavistara, in the Mahāvastu of the Mahāsāṅghika-Lokottaravāda Vinaya, and in the Saṅghabhedavastu of the (Mūla-)Sarvastivāda Vinaya. The part of the Mahasaccaka-sutta that records the Buddha’s awakening after he had given up his ascetic practices has also a parallel in a passage from the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya.

According to the Mahāsaccaka-sutta, the Buddha preceded an account of his ascetic practices by delivering three similes. These similes compare an attempt to reach awakening without being bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensuality to trying to light a fire with wood that is immersed in water or else taken out of water but still wet.

In contrast, just as lighting a fire will only be possible with dry wood, similarly only someone who is bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensuality will be able to reach awakening, an ability that is, however, independent of whether he practises austerities or not. In the Sanskrit fragment version, these similes occur after the description of the ascetic practices and thus lead over to the bodhisattva recollecting an earlier experience of the first jhāna.

While the Lalitavistara and the Mahāvastu agree with the Mahāsaccaka-sutta on placing these three similes before the bodhisattva’s ascetic practices,155 the Saṅghabhedavastu first describes most of the ascetic practices and only then comes to the three similes.

As the three similes in the Mahāsaccaka-sutta imply that awakening does not necessarily require austerities, it is puzzling that the Mahāsaccaka-sutta places them before the bodhisattva’s ascetic practices. If the bodhisattva had already realized that austerities are not necessary for awakening before undertaking them, there would have been little reason for him to engage in them at all. In this respect, the Sanskrit fragment version’s presentation seems to fit the context better.

The same argument does not apply to the account given in the Lalitavistara and the Mahāvastu, since their version of the three similes only highlights the need to stay aloof from sensuality in body and mind, without drawing the conclusion that awakening can be reached independent of the practice of austerities. Hence in these versions, the import of the three similes is only that for asceticism to bear fruit, bodily and mental withdrawal from sensuality is required. The Lalitavistara and the Mahāvastu continue in fact by reporting how the bodhisattva reflected that he would be able to reach awakening by undertaking austerities while staying aloof from sensuality in body and mind.

Thus what causes the similes in the Mahāsaccaka-sutta to be off sequence in the overall account is the statement made after each of them, which relates the ability to reach awakening to two alternatives: one might engage in austerities or one might not engage in austerities (the Lalitavistara and the Mahāvastu consider only the first option of these two).

In the case of the first and second simile, this double statement just conveys the sense that, unless sensuality is overcome, it is irrelevant if one engages in austerities or not, since one will anyway to be able to reach awakening. In the case of the third simile, however, the implication is that awakening is possible with austerities as well as without austerities.

Were it not for this last part of the statement made after the third simile, the whole set of three similes would fit its present position, being simply an illustration of the need to overcome sensuality as a necessary condition for asceticism to bear its fruit.

He doesn’t discuss it in his treatment of MN85, although he does mention that the discourse doesn’t have a parallel in the Chinese Āgamas, though he says parts of it have been preserved in Sanskrit framgents and versions of the introductory narrative can be found in the Theravāda and the Mahīśāsaka Vinayas, and in the Dhammapada commentary.

For MN100, he says that it doesn’t have a parallel in the Chinese Āgamas, but a version of it has been preserved in Sanskrit fragments.

Malunkyaputta · February 26, 2025, 8:17pm

Hello Venerable

I believe what is described in the similes is not yet the Buddhist concept of disattachment, but rather the general thought that asceticism is necessary to be receptable for insight.

He then went on discovering the middle way, that extreme asceticism is also not suitable for liberation and that it comes trough disattachment and Samadhi.

Of course this interpretation only makes sense if his previous teachers were not total ascetics. I don’t know if that was the case.

On a side note, my German edition has a completely different MN100 (in which the Buddha possibly denies the existence of Gods). But I guess you already warned me against Neumann

cdpatton · February 28, 2025, 4:42am

This is probably the best answer at the moment. I don’t think the EA or MA parallels mention this detail in their stories about the bodhisattva’s austerity practice. There may be more parallels in the avadana texts that collect together the Vinaya stories about the Buddha. I’ll look through some of them this weekend and see if there are any other mentions of the log similes.

cdpatton · March 2, 2025, 8:24pm

So, looking through some of the Buddha biographical collections in Chinese, I did find the three similes in a couple other parallels.

The earliest of the biographies translated during the Latter Han dynasty is T184 (~150 CE). It has a much briefer version of the Bodhisattva’s early practice. It lacks most of what we would expect from the story like the laundry list of extreme practices and such. It doesn’t have the three similes or much of narrative about the Bodhisattva traveling from one place to another. Instead, we are simply told that he ate very little and the gods fed him to keep him alive during that time.

T185 was translated during the Wu dynasty (~250 CE). It reads very similar to T184. The six years of practice take up only a couple lines of a text about his eating only a grain of sesame or rice each day. There’s no mention of the three similes.

Those two early translations were also quite brief and generally only covered the story of the Buddha leaving home and defeating Mara.

T186 普曜經 was the first large collection of stories. It was translated ~300 CE. The Bodhisattva’s six years of austerities is chapter 15. It’s a much more involved story, but it doesn’t include the three similes that I can see, before or after the six years.

In T187 方廣大莊嚴經, which I believe is the Mahāvyūha. It was translated during the Tang dynasty, around 683 CE. The Bodhisattva contemplates the three similes after abandoning his initial teachers and going off to stay on Mount Gaya next to the Nairañjana River. The passage occurs at T187.3.580b21-c14. He then leaves the mountain and goes to a lake in Uruvilva where he could look at the Nairañjana River. Admiring how beautiful it was there, he finds a place where he begins his six years of practice. So, that agrees with the Pali suttas.

T188 doesn’t seem to describe the austerities, being an excerpt of a story collection.

T189 is also a larger collection of stories. It was translated in 435–443 CE. It includes a narrative of how the Bodhisattva practiced for six years eating very little, but most of the story between his deciding to do this and decided to stop is about King Bimbasara and his family being unhappy with the situation, since he appeared to be course to starve himself to death. There’s no mention of the three similes.

In T190 佛本行集經 was the largest collection of stories translated to Chinese, comparable to the Mahavastu. It was translated during the late 500s CE. Chapter 29 is the story of the Bodhisattva’s austerities. The Bodhisattva goes to stay on Gayasirsa Mountain and there he contemplates the three similes at the outset of his six years of austerities. After contemplating the similes, he comes down from the mountain and finds a place to practice at Uruvilva. So, that also agrees with the Pali suttas.

So, I have to say, the evidence doesn’t make me very confident that this story element is very old, given that the earlier versions lack this bit of the story. The Mahavastu and Mulasarvastivada Vinayas are not particular early sources, either. Maybe the reason it seems off in the Pali suttas is because it was inserted later in an awkward way to mimic these other story collections that included it?

brunobr · March 8, 2025, 12:46pm

Greetings.

The simile of the three logs is about attachment to sensuality, not about the austere practices. That the boddhisatta transitioned from this simile to the austere practices makes sense because he was trying to use these practices to abandon sensuality. That’s why the austere practices are mentioned AFTER the simile, not before.

This conclusion doesn’t come from the simile itself but arises later, after reflecting on the lack of results from austere practices. It’s important to note that after realizing the futility of austerities, the bodhisatta could have been tempted to return to sensuality. However, he was wise enough to find an alternative that did not exclude the abandonment of sensuality from his practice.

sabbamitta · March 8, 2025, 12:59pm

Hmm … it seems to come in direct connection with the simile:

MN36:17.2-13:
Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying in water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat.

What do you think, Aggivessana? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log lying in the water, could they light a fire and produce heat?”

“No, worthy Gotama. Why not? Because it’s a green, sappy log, and it’s lying in the water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who don’t live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. They haven’t internally given up or stilled desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion, they are incapable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening.

This was the first example that occurred to me.

brunobr · March 8, 2025, 1:40pm

I’ll try to summarize some key events from these suttas:

The boddisatta arrives at the Senānigama park in Uruvelā. There, the simile of the three logs occurs to him.
He engages in austere practices, and his body becomes extremely emaciated and weak.
He concludes that no other ascetic, before or after him, would be able to surpass the point he had reached. And yet, he had not attained any special knowledge or awakening.
He reflects on possible alternatives for his practice and recalls his childhood experience with jhāna.
He realizes that the practice of jhāna would lead him to awakening and abandons austere practices.

The connection between the simile of the three logs and the practice of jhāna is indeed correct. But this was not clear to the Bodhisatta at first. The most obvious approach for him was to first attempt austere practices to abandon sensuality. This was his initial reasoning based on the simile—though ultimately a mistaken one.

Only after experiencing the consequences of austere practices in his own body did he realize that these practices would not bring the desired results. Fortunately, he maintained the understanding that seclusion from sensuality was still necessary to achieve his goal. He continued following the reasoning behind the simile of the three logs until he arrived at the correct conclusion.

We can compare austere practices to a person trying to make fire with a hammer, while the practice of jhāna is like a person drilling the log. If both individuals are using dry logs (i.e., they are secluded from sensuality), the first person will be unable to produce fire regardless of their effort, whereas the second person may succeed by applying the right effort.