The trolley problem: notes towards a Buddhist perspective

The trolley problem reminds me of the Kobayashi Maru test at the beginning of the Wrath of Khan. There’s no right answer; it tests one’s reaction to the situation more than anything, as the researchers point out. They change the details of the story to see how people react to those details. In the movie, a cadet complains after the test that there was no way to win. The instructor, Adm. Kirk, explains that that’s the point: It tests how a potential officer will react when there’s no winning choice. He then tells the cadet that when he took it, he cheated to win anyway by rewriting the simulation.

Which reminds me, of all things, of an ancient Buddhist jātaka story!

In the story of King Śibi bargaining with a hawk to save the life of a pigeon, the Bodhisattva is put into a no-win situation of having decide to save a pigeon and let a hawk die of starvation, or let the hawk eat the pigeon.

Śibi’s solution was to give the hawk his own flesh in lieu of the pigeon. It’s a bit gruesome after that point. Unknown to him, the two birds were actually gods testing him. The gods push the issue to the point of Śibi having to give his entire body to the hawk, meaning trading his own life for the pigeon.

When they were certain Śibi was willing to die for the pigeon, the gods reveal themselves and magically restore his health. It’s very much a story like the Trolley Problem in which someone is put into the problem that inaction isn’t a good option. But, like Kirk in Star Trek, the Bodhisattva refuses to do option A or B, but makes a new one.

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We should probably keep this thread for the trolley problem, I’ll start a new one to discuss psycopathy, but just a few notes.

Umm, just so we’re clear, psychosis and schizophrenia are completely different conditions than psychopathy, i.e “antisocial personality disorder”.

Yes, that is who I am addressing.

Ahh, I don’t think so. Spiritual experiences lie way beyond psychopathy.

I never said average. Psychopaths are human beings with an affliction, and like all human beings, they are diverse.

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It’s a neat thought experiment, as it teases out how far people take utilitarianism. For most of us, there are actions that we feel are ethically wrong even if utilitarian.

In terms of Buddhist ethics…

Does intentional inaction create Kamma? If we make the choice not to turn the wheel, does the fact our choice was inaction protect us from Kamma?

If intentional inaction does not create Kamma, then it seems we are safer not to protest, not to speak out, about the issues of the day. From a strictly Buddhist point of view, if inaction is always kammically safe, it seems the best recommendation would be to stay out of the issues of the day. That, for many of us, doesn’t seem a very satisfying conclusion.

If intentional inaction does produce Kamma, then we produce Kamma whether we intentionally turn the wheel and kill one person or intentionally leave the wheel untouched and kill four. So it is then just one of those unfortunate things that happens sometimes in life, which is fine. The important thing then is not to pretend we kept ourselves above the consequences by choosing inaction.

Of course, if we produce Kamma either way, would that mean an arahant would produce Kamma either way? He/she would still take one of the same kamma-producing actions. So it is useful to remember than arahant still has consequences to their actions, and they are still subject to consequences. Just because the person who does something is an arahant doesn’t mean they can’t be sued, for example. So the escape from Kamma only refers to the fact there will be no next life to suffer the consequences.

Note. I’m sure there are arguments explaining where I went wrong in anything I said that doesn’t fit within the Buddhist framework. I don’t for a second believe some rando playing through a thought experiment on the internet is going to come up with anything that hasn’t been thought through. So I am sincerely interested in understanding any places my thought process went wrong. :heart: :slightly_smiling_face:

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Lovely discussion. The Trolley Problem has always haunted me, as is partly its intent. And I always disdained Kirk’s solution to the parallel Kobayashi Maru test: to cheat. But I agree with @JimInBC that once the dilemma is accurately perceived, kamma is at play, and so inaction still constitutes volitional action.

So I reluctantly (because I don’t think I’d have the strength to do it) resonate with King Śibi’s answer from the Jataka: the solution to the Trolley Problem that creates the least harmful kamma must be to throw oneself on the tracks in time to stop either eventuality. Of course this is also a way to escape the Utilitarian trap, and a simplistic parable about talking birds (or runaway trolleys) isn’t so useful anyway as support for the messiness of modern ethical dilemmas, where there are always more than two choices, and where the results are muddled by many more causes and conditions than any individual has access to.

Given that, I’ll propose that a useful Buddhist response to the TP is that it’s a teaching about the unfixability of saṃsāra. The Trolley Problem is about dukkha, plain and simple. It’s impossible to fully prevent harm in the world. So in the trolley moment, a person with insight into this is put into an impossible dilemma, and I do think just goes with their instinct, supported by whatever wisdom they have. We’re in these dilemmas every day, where the best action we can come up with still clearly causes harm. So an appropriate response to the TP is grief at the nature of the world, compassion, and dedication to the path.

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There’s still another aspect that comes to mind when thinking about this trolley problem.

I am German. There has been a time—before I was born, but not so very long ago either—when in my country exactly such a “utilitarian” reasoning was used to justify the most gruesome mass murder.

Before the gas chambers were developed in the Nazi period and mass killing of people was “industrialized”, this was done by hand. It was mass killing nevertheless.

Don't open if you're too sensitive.

First, a large pit was dug. Jews were to come in a long queue, taking off their clothes at the edge of the pit and walk into it naked. Then they had to lay down, and a person would shoot them in the neck. The next had to lay down on top of the previous ones. Men, women, adults, kids, regardless. Hundreds in one day, or thousands.

At lunchtime the ones who did the shooting would have a break, sitting at the edge of the pit and having lunch. Afterwards they would continue. It was just a normal work day.

The ones who did this “mass killing by hand” were not particularly evil monsters. Nor were they people who had no empathy. In the evening and on weekends they would write letters home to their wives and children. They were loving husbands and fathers.

They also were not necessarily forced to do this work. In theory, there was the option to say “no”, but hardly anyone did this.

Why?

Because there was a justification. It said that you have to be strong and do this difficult work for the higher good. In this case this meant “cleaning” the German people from Jews and other undesired elements.

In the trolley problem too, you would have to kill one person for the “higher good”—in this case in order to save five lives. But where can we draw the line when it comes to defining what such a “higher good” can be that justifies killing of human beings?

This is another reason that makes me feel most uncomfortable with this trolley problem.

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“The question with the death penalty is not whether they deserve to die, but do we deserve to kill.”

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I suppose the various rules of thumb/guidelines that people tend to use when making moral decisions don’t always mesh together entirely comfortably. One could probably set up an extreme hypothetical situation that will make just about anyone holding absolutely and steadfastly to any one such principle rather uncomfortable.

Most people have an idea that minimizing harm to the maximum number of people is generally good (or, alternatively, maximizing good to the many). If a plane flying above a city suddenly is about to crash, then generally everyone will agree that the pilot pointing it towards less populous areas (suburbs) is better than pointing it right at the city centre (minimizing loss of life). In this situation, there’s no real conflict with other principles. This situation has many similarities with the standard trolley problem, which is perhaps why many people tend to think it’s ok to flip the switch.

There’s usually an idea that actively stepping in to cause harm is worse than more passively not intervening, e.g. throwing someone into a river versus just being too afraid to jump in and rescue someone who is drowning. The standard trolley problem seems more non-interventionist. Of course, there are limits to this too, i.e. acts of commission versus acts of omission. If one is staying in one’s rich uncle’s house and you see he has slipped on some bathroom tiles, hit his head, become unconscious, is lying face down in the water, and one just looks the other way (thinking I’m now going to get all that money in the will much sooner than expected), well, the difference between that and murder is getting a bit narrow; ok, it’s a somewhat less actively planned decision (more opportunistic) but still a decision to leave someone die.

I suppose that’s why the idea of pushing the fat man onto the tracks does not seem like the right choice to most people, it’s an active act of harm (turning a switch seems a lot more passive and more like choosing between unalterable outcomes). There’s probably also the view that a line has been crossed. There also is always the option of throwing oneself on the tracks (gulp), not that even a fat man is ever likely to stop a real train! :man_shrugging:

The fat man trolley problem also makes a certain type of consequentialism/utilitarianism look really bad (adherents like psychopaths really :slight_smile: ). Though perhaps it’s just that a psychopath would have no real issue with the active harm part, even if the associated concept of doing this for some overall good might not mean much to him. Though, there are versions of utilitarianism that lead to something more like deontological ethics.

Peter Singer is one of the most well-known utilitarians. IMO he is definitely not a psychopath :sweat_smile: (has had rather nice work on animal rights, effective altruism etc.) but some of his type of argumentation does end up in very discomfiting places, e.g. euthanasia for severely disabled newborns, i.e. society allows this for the unborn so he has asked why not for infants (he asks what’s the difference, other than in degree)? I was recently listening to a debate he took part in on assisted suicide. He definitely made some cogent arguments. However, I suppose my main issue with this approach is the feeling that there are lines that probably shouldn’t be crossed (a slippery slope argument). Such laws have existed in the Netherlands for around 20 years. There is a degree of evidence of slippery slope, initially were mostly less controversial hard cases, but has been extended to psychological and not just terminal illness, e.g. a woman who lost her sight got access to assisted suicide, to children with the consent of parents etc. Singer does argue that there hasn’t been that much slippery slope (am not sure I agree), though he admits this type of argument is the strongest counterargument against his positions. IMO it’ll probably take another 20 years before we get a fuller idea into where this leads. So within utilitarianism, I think there’s room for utilitarian approaches more like deontological ethics where there’s a view that sometimes there are hard, suboptimal but easily-arbitrated, lines/rules/boundaries that shouldn’t be crossed (because perhaps the longer-term corrosive effects on society might be worse).

Of course, there can be trolley problems to sort out the utilitarian pseudo-deontologists from the actual true hard deontologists too. What if one has to push a fat man off a height to stop a James Bond supervillian who is about to active a superweapon that will incinerate all human and other life on earth? I suppose a (at least skinny) pseudo-deontological utilitarian in this case should really push the fat man (assuming his fatness is crucial for some reason; if I was less lazy I could probably come up with a less ridiculous example :slight_smile: ) given that the superweapon will burn away any slippery slopes along with the rest of the earth! I guess the true deontologist would just have to leave the Earth be incinerated? :man_shrugging:

I suppose also often we as mere humans just don’t really know the true rules of the game. If there was a Deity up in the sky who had laid down a fixed set of rules, with disobedience resulting in a long or infinite spell in some unpleasant place, then even a believing utilitarian might be end up following some rule-based ethics. Same goes for various understandings of rebirth or kamma. Members of some cults can end up with very contorted ethical systems. I suppose ultimately there must be some responsibility on people too for the belief system they use to frame their moral approach. Or if one is trying to choose in a situation to maximize some utility or maximize the good for all in the situation, that can be incredibly difficult without knowing all the facts and possible implications. That’s where handy access to some kind of pocket omniscient personal oracle would be mightily convenient :wink: (the rather odd Greek accounts of Socrates and his Daimonian, a version of that, come to mind), but utilitarians generally just have to muddle along with partial and limited facts and hope that what they think is help doesn’t actually ultimately harm. A major weakness of utilitarianism is that it is not some benign, wise, dispassionate, omniscient arbiter making utility calls but mere messy and rather fallible humans.

For the fat man-supervillian situation, belief might matter too. If one believed there were infinite worlds out there, into which everyone would be reborn somewhere, and likely everyone there had been through multiple civilizational/world destructions already over the course of some enormously long chain of transmigration, then perhaps a deontologist might cling to that. Though perhaps the idea that they, their families, friends and loved ones might be about to imminently get fried might be a more pressing consideration??!! But I suspect there are many people who just would not be able to do it even in extremis. I don’t think that’s wrong (the hypothetical supervillain would be the guilty party after all). Though, in an extreme enough situation (this being very extreme), many probably would push the fat man too. I’m not sure that would be wrong either.

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Reading this thread I am getting a strong sense I should drop a few pounds, just in case.

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Alternatively, you could try gaining a few pounds, until you’re too heavy for any utilitarian to push you off a bridge.

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This subject is fascinating. I haven’t read all answers yet (it goes back a long time…) so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been said.

that’s n interesting point, somewhat related to a quote attributed to Einstein “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil , but because of those who look on and do nothing.” According to some views, failing to intervene when you can is a moral fault and so bad kamma. But I don’t know if this is so in EBT since a lot of what I read is about refraining.

Another interesting point is: what if the fat person you have the choice of pushing to stop the trolley and save 5 lives is an arahant? Would you make worse kamma because you would kill an arahant? Or since they have completed their task in life, it’s preferable if they die and achieve parinibbana (which is the final goal anyway) so that 5 other persons do not risk dying and perhaps being reborn in a lower realm, and can perhaps have a go at becoming enlightened in this very life?

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I haven’t read all of the replies here, so apologies if I repeat anything someone has already said. My first encounter with the trolley problem was on (US) National Public Radio’s science/culture show, Radio Lab. There they went into the evolution and neuroscience of the two separate and often conflicting moral systems that we contain: one that’s instinctual and feelings-based, and the other that’s more rational. The two involve (IIRC) entirely separate parts of the brain. The trolley problem brings those two systems into conflict, which is why it’s interesting. The program is well worth listening to. I’ve done so several times.

In the context of that show, the option was to push a fat man onto the tracks in order to prevent a group of people from being killed. The problem in that scenario is that you’d have no guarantee whoatsoever that the bulk of the fat man would be enough to stop the trolley car. In fact the idea that it would seems absurd to me, and so that course of action would never occur to me. Nor would I attempt it if it were to be suggested to me. It’s more realistic when the choice is simply to choose which of two tracks the trolley goes along: one where one death will result and the other where multiple deaths take place. But that usually involves pushing a lever, which removes the visceral impact of physically pushing to their death a person who is close to you. The removal of that factor weakens the thought experiment because there’s less conflict between the rational and feelings-based moral systems. (Our feelings about someone are conditioned by physical closeness and touch.) In the absence of that conflict the choice is much easier. After all, if my car’s brakes failed and I had to make an instant decision about whether to run down one person or many, I’d choose to kill fewer people.

Lastly, as it happens there was a fascinating first-person account of what it’s like to make moral decisions as a sociopath in the New York Times just two days ago.

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Thanks for sharing this article, it’s beautiful!

You’re welcome, @sabbamitta.

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Indeed, it’s a beautiful article. There’s something very moving about the sense of a glimmer of redemption that it offers, and the complexity of morality. It’s not as if possessing a sense of remorse ensures that people always act in “good” ways.

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I think several issues arise with the Trolley Problem:

  1. There may be circumstances that I’m not aware of.
  2. My actions make me responsible for a situation that wasn’t my responsibility.
  3. There may be unintended consequences that may make the situation better or may make the situation worse.

For instance, early mankind developed agriculture and domesticated animals not understanding the repercussions. (see Dr. Jered Diamond’s paper on how agriculture was the greatest mistake humans ever made)

What if the person killed by the fat man was a wholesome person and the five people saved by intervention go on to harm others and make really bad kamma?

If I intervene, I might think that I’m a hero and/or I may have regrets that I harmed another person.

The precept is to not harm others. It doesn’t say it’s ok to harm others if it’s in order to not harm a greater number. If I don’t do anything, am I somehow responsible for the deaths of the five?

The Buddha could have used his wisdom and powers to govern, perhaps as the greatest king ever, but he didn’t. I don’t think of the Buddha as passive, but I don’t see him as an activist. He did take it upon himself to help a monk suffering from dysentery, but he was acting out of compassion. Again I ask, would the Buddha push the fat man to his death?

@Bodhipaksa I remember that Radiolab show and how it brought up some good points about the different regions of the brain that process different issues which create a mental conundrum.

I think that a somewhat related real question is whether it is ethical to infect volunteers with coronavirus, with the aim of speeding up the process of finding vaccines and thus saving many lives:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02821-4
In the UK they’ll be doing such trials, of course they’ll take every precaution to look after the volunteers, but who knows, there are still so many unknowns with this virus.
From the article it seems that some people might be motivated to volunteer because they receive some money, rather than out of self sacrifice.
I am wondering whether in Buddhism it would be a good think to volunteer (not for the money but to help with the research). Probably ok in Mahayana, with the Bodhisatva ideal? Not sure in Theravada since you would be acting for the benefit of others but not necessarily of yourself, unless you consider that this is making good Kamma and so in this sense it’s for your benefit too.

I have just read this post; interestingly it’s a question I am considering at the moment, after reading an article quoting the Dalai Lama

Perhaps it would have been more effective to patronize his art career and make sure he never felt the need to give up painting. :man_shrugging: :man_artist:

This is why governments should always sponsor the arts! :rofl:

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Blockquote[quote=“Khemarato.bhikkhu, post:44, topic:17522”]
Perhaps it would have been more effective to patronize his art career and make sure he never felt the need to give up painting. :man_shrugging: :man_artist:

This is why governments should always sponsor the arts!
[/quote]

Hitler had indeed a sincere appreciation for the arts (unlike most politicians) but he was not a gifted painter himself IMO, so sponsoring him would not really have helped him with his self esteem (which seemed to be one of his problems when he wanted to be an artist).

Anyway I think you were joking (let’s hope our Jewish friends find it funny) - I think the question in the real world remains on how to deal with concrete situations of evil: something the Dalai Lama tried to do in the interview I quoted, probably because he is not only a monk but also takes interest and responsibility in the real world through his involvement in politics.
PS
sorry if this is not really on the trolley problem, though it is related to the important question about whether killing can be legitimate

I’m with my good friend Geralt of Rivia on this one:

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