The Validity of bhikkhunī Ordination by bhikkhus Only, According to the Pāli Vinaya

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135

Here is Ajahn Thanissaro’s footnote on the rule:

Asking a question related to the Vinaya can be the first step in admonishment and making accusations (see Mv.II.15.6-8), which is why this rule is related to the eighth of the eight vows of respect (against a bhikkhunī admonishing a bhikkhu). As Horner notes in BD, the word-commentary to this rule is one of the few places in the Vinaya that apparently refers to the Abhidhamma as a text — thus indicating that either the rule or its word-commentary is a later formulation.

I don’t know the answer to your other two questions, so I’ll let the experts answer.

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136

Oh, I see.
This is related to asking questions about eight vows.
That make sense. ( excepts Sutta and Abhidhamma.)

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It’s a pity the Vibhaṅga (pi-tv-bi-vb-pc95) doesn’t offer any explanation.

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138

No, I don’t think it’s about asking questions about the garudhammas, I think this rule is in place because of (or in association with) the garudhammas. Thus, in order to refrain from disrespecting a bhikkhu (as in accord with the seventh and eighth garudhammas) a bhikkhuni should receive a bhikkhus permission before asking questions about the Dhamma (maybe so that the bhikkhu can ascertain or assess her intention).

I totally forgot about the Vibhanga! Although it does help with what ‘not given leave’ means, notably:

Not given leave means: without asking (for permission).

This seems like a confusing translation to me, I think ‘permission’ would be more appropriate.

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139

Oh yes, I can see how this might have confused. I’m actually quite fond of old-fart English so understood what it meant. :wink:

I think another thing that the absence of origin narrative could possibly help with is what the absence might imply about the rule’s development, but I myself wouldn’t yet want to travel down that particular speculative road until I was much more familiar with the text as a whole.

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140

That’s what I was thinking as well. :sweat_smile:

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141

Thank you @Akincana. I just finished reading your post & comparing what I could from AN 8.51.

Kind regards :deciduous_tree:

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The nun says: “Bhante, please permit me to ask you a question (about the Sutta, Vinaya, or Abhidhamma):” If he says “yes, please ask me.” or if he keeps silent, that might be regarded as permission. If he refuses, the bhikkhuni is not allowed to ask him.— I should think it refers also to an internet forum, also, or to handwritten letters. It should simply be the first sentence she says. Then she should wait a moment, for his reaction. ---- How to give permission. if it is a letter or an internet message? Could we assume, the bhikkhu would just not be there, if he is unwilling to answer questions? — I am only samaneri, so this precept does not apply to me. However, it would be polite to ask permission, before firing a volley of complicated questions. As the saying

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143

goes: “a fool can ask more questions, than a hundred wise men can answer”.

144

So, you have no objection to this vinaya rule?

145

Not really.

But there are other rules, that I am less comfortable with. For example the rule that bhikkhunis are not allowed to teach bhikkhus.
In the modern world, this does not make sense. There may be many uneducated bhikkhus, who are denied excess to a female teacher, because she has become a bhikkhuni. The same person would have been free to teach them (to speak English for example), as a lay person. What nonsense!
… But that is what the ancient Vinaya prescribes.

Another rule, that has been difficult for me is the one, that forbids a bhikkhu to teach more than five or six syllables of a dhamma chant to a lay person (padaso dhamma pacittiya rule).

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148

Can you give an example?

149

A nasty monk is not a monk…

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150

As Bhante Sujato pointed out, do not expect all monk to be perfect.

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151

Actually, this is not a bad advice. I thnk this should be applicable to male monks as well. Once a monk came to our house and continue with his Dhamma talk for two and half hours. Many people were sleeping and snoring. Then a one lady ask the monk “Bhante aren’t you going to finish your talk?”
In Sri Lanka when men talk too much they say “you are talking like a woman”
I think evolutionary-wise women are designed to talk more than men. when the man goes on hunting he has to be quite. The woman stays home and disciplines the children. Children learn to speak from the mother. So naturally, women have to talk more than men.
I heard that men think silently and women think loud.
It is a skill to deliver your ideas in few words.
Oops, I am talking too much!

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152

In this case I’d really have to agree - politeness forbids me from mentioning which adjective I’d insert between ‘much’ and ‘!’. In any case your talk is completely off-topic so it’s probably best to go and hunt some of that quiet.

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153

Agree.
I just did 40 minutes of meditation.
:anjal:

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154

Quite the contrary. I have tried to show how the Vinaya is more flexible than it is normally given credit for. Not to point this out would be irresponsible.

You are being silly. I have given clear reasons for my position. You are welcome to discuss with me on that basis.

But there is no such rule, at least not in the Pali.

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155

One of the interpretation of garudhamma no. 8 (for bhikkhunis):
“ajja-t-agge ova.to bhikkhuniina.m bhikkhuusu vacana-pa.tho
an-ova.taa bhikkhuuna.m bhikkhuniisu vacana-pa.tho” (Vin II page 255)

HORNER (1952) translates: "refains crom commanding by way of speech"
HÜSKEN (1997) takes this passage mean that bhikkhuniis require permission before they can talk to hikkhus, but not vice versa.
WIJAYARATNA (2001:19) connects it to teaching: “Nuns do not have the right to teach monks, but monks have a duty to teach nuns”

This seems to be based on actual practice in Sri Lanka. … This is no joke, it actually happened to one of the first bhikkhunis ordained in Sri Lanka. She was allowed to teach English to the monks as a lay woman, but refused after she had become a bhikkhuni.

This usage is not based on a translation of the Paali text found in CV (= Cullavagga), but it agrees with the Chinese translation of the gurudhamma rule no. 6 in a Suutra text of the Sarvaastivaadin-s (MAA 116).

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156

Maybe, but the Sri Lankan Sangha follows the Pali in all questions of Vinaya. I suspect this is related to the commentarial explanation, or perhaps this is more of a cultural phenomenon.

The word vacanapatha is actually quite rare in the EBTs. Apart from the garudhammas, it occurs only in a few contexts, all of which refer to unpleasant kinds of speech:

… duruttānaṃ durāgatānaṃ vacanapathānaṃ …
… vacanapatha that is rude and unwelcome … (e.g. MN 2)

Passatha no tumhe, bhikkhave, taṃ vacanapathaṃ, aṇuṃ vā thūlaṃ vā, yaṃ tumhe nādhivāseyyāthā’’ti?
Monks, do you see any vacanapatha, subtle or gross, that you would not be able to endure? (MN21 and MN 103)

… yāva na amanāpā vacanapathā phusanti.
… as long as they do not experience unpleasant vacanapatha. (MN 21)

MN 21 also speaks of five _vacanapatha_s, not all of which are unpleasant. Yet the emphasis in this sutta is on how to deal with unpleasant speech in a constructive way, and I therefore suspect vacanapatha is used throughout for simplicity, such uniformity being one of the characteristics of oral literature.

It seems clear to me, then, that in the EBTs this word is restricted to unpleasant kinds of speech, presumably rude and offensive language.

The commentary to the _garudhamma_s, however, seems to narrow down vacanapatha to “correcting”:

Vacanayeva vacanapatho. … Tasmā bhikkhuniyā ādhipaccaṭṭhāne jeṭṭhakaṭṭhāne ṭhatvā ‘‘evaṃ abhikkama, evaṃ paṭikkama, evaṃ nivāsehi, evaṃ pārupāhī’’ti kenaci pariyāyena neva bhikkhu ovaditabbo, na anusāsitabbo. Dosaṃ pana disvā ‘‘pubbe mahātherā na evaṃ abhikkamanti, na paṭikkamanti, na nivāsenti, na pārupanti, īdisaṃ kāsāvampi na dhārenti, na evaṃ akkhīni añjentī’’tiādinā nayena vijjamānadosaṃ dassetuṃ vaṭṭati.

Vacanapatho just means speaking to. … Therefore a bhikkhunī should under no circumstances take a position of authority or of an elder and instruct: “Go forward like this and return like this; dress like this and put on your upper robe like this.” If she sees a fault, however, she is allowed to show an existing fault in this way: “Previously the great elder did not go forward or return like this; he did not dress or put on his upper robe like this; he did wear such a robe or use make-up for the eyes.”

Although the commentary uses the words ovādati and anusāsati, which often have the wider meaning of “teach,” the above passage makes it clear that only direct criticism is proscribed. In any case, even this interpretation from the commentary seems to be the outcome of a developed understanding of vacanapatha not found in the earliest texts.

There is nothing in the above, either from the Pali EBTs or the commentary, to stop a bhikkhunīs from teaching monks. And so I remain unclear how this custom has taken hold in Sri Lanka.

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