The ‘world’ in the Kaccānagotta Sutta

Exactly!

The problem though is that this is a kind of straw man. The purpose of Madhyamaka is literally to refute metaphysical discussions, not start new ones! :laughing: It’s a straw-man to suppose that Madhyamaka is proposing a new form of metaphysical speculation. It’s not what the system does. It is supposed to give the tools to deconstruct particular ontological views, which are one of the floods (ogha), outflows (āsava) and underlying tendencies (anusaya), and which the Buddha himself refuted. Deconstructing or refuting wrong views is not the same as proposing an opposite view. Refuting eternalism is not the same as arguing for annihilationism.

What the Buddha did with ‘the world’ or ‘the all’ is what Madhyamaka is trying to re-establish.

I didn’t expect to be defending Madhyamaka :laughing: But I’m only trying to balance out the conversation here, which is just turning to a rhetoric of “too complicated!” without actually addressing the point, which directly relates to ‘the world.’

Now, I am definitely not saying we need to follow what all later Madhyamakas did and said and so on. They can definitely discuss details well beyond what the Buddha was interested in! I think things do tend to get “too complicated” in Madhyamaka by the Buddha’s standards! Like I’ve written, discussing quantum mechanics and so on might be interesting to some, but I don’t think that’s what the Buddha had in mind! :laughing:

I just don’t think we should suggest that the basic idea of emptiness is somehow more speculative. Though I recognize that I may bias my reading of them to be more simple than it actually is, because I am mostly familiar with the EBTs.

Maybe people should read the pages and pages of “metaphysical discussion” in DN 1, DN 15, MN 1, MN 102, etc. LOTS of time spent addressing selves and cosmos and metaphysics and refuting a variety of different views. Was the Buddha wasting his time proposing ‘speculations’ when he was refuting those views? We can’t accuse people who refute wrong views of wasting time and energy away from the pragmatic world. The refutation is precisely in order to prevent people from wasting time and energy forming ontological views.

Mettā :slight_smile:

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This a thousand times. The purpose of Nagarjuna was to refute metaphysical speculation, metaphysical assertions, metaphysical beliefs etc and to leave no metaphysics in his wake. It can be very disorienting because we are so used to assuming metaphysics that it is disorienting or maddening to some to have no ground or base to stand on in the wake of metaphysical refutation. :pray:

PS: I don’t believe for a second that Nagarjuna thought he was innovating in any way what the Teacher taught.

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Also epistemology is metaphysics

“Is cosmos eternal? Finite? Both finite and eternal? Neither eternal nor finite? Bro Idk, but it sure as hell dukkha.” Dukkha Nikaya 1

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What’s a good English translation you can offer for analysis? I’ve read a few copies online but I woulndn’t know the accuracy of translations. I’d rather know a copy from a self proposed student. :slight_smile:

Here is the version I’ve compiled
mmk.pdf (333.4 KB)

Extracted from Ocean of Reasoning: A Great Commentary on Nāgārjuna’s Mūlamadhyamakakārikā
rJe Tsong Khapa
Circa 1407—1408

Translated from Tibetan into English by
Geshe Ngawang Samten
& Jay L. Garfield
2006

Extracted and prepared by
Yeshe Tenley
2016

All errors are my own. NOTE: the original is hard to decipher without a commentary because it isn’t always clear which verse come from the interlocutor who is proposing a metaphysics and which verse come from Nagarjuna to refute the proposed metaphysics. I don’t have a favorite commentary, but rather use them all. I guess I favor Nagarjuna → Aryadeva → Buddhapalita → Chandrakirti → rJe Tsong Khapa but be warned it is hard to decipher those too. :pray:

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Metaphysics - the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space.

Buddhism - a religion that deals with the principles of all conditioned of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space,
morality, feelings, conscioussness, rebirth, karma, various heavens, hell, eternalism, annihilation, devas, brahma gods, immateriality and the escape from all these very things.

Only a physicalist would say:
Metaphysics - abstract theory with no basis in reality.

Atta is not a speculation with no basis in reality but the experiences of actual meditators recollecting past lives.

Without Dependent Origination almost all spiritual people are bound to be eternalists in some shape or form.

So how does one put a stop to endless transmigration without Dependent Origination? You can’t, since feelings will remain.

Other meditators from other spiritual paths have always existed. And it is not like they are ignorant fools, they have a lot of wisdom - But The Buddha has the greatest and most superior insights.

Buddhism is identical to other religions in that it is the same precepts, same cosmology (heavens & hells) same unseen higher beings (devas) and so on.

These things are not fantasies by primitive people.
These other meditators also had the supernatural abilities found in buddhism.

One of the things that makes buddhism different and will never be found in any other religion is Dependent Origination.

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You present it like this that when people would understand that the woman form does not truly exist, or that an icecream has no substance, or that liquor is coreless, or that a tiger is really empty, that the shells will fall away from peoples eyes. Their Dhamma-eye will open. They will awaken. They become dispassionate.

I do not believe this happens.

To further prove my points:

You’ll have no doubt or uncertainty that what arises is just suffering arising, and what ceases is just suffering ceasing. Your knowledge about this is independent of others. - SN 12.15

You can expect that a faithful, energetic, mindful noble disciple with their mind immersed in samādhi will understand this: ‘Transmigration has no known beginning. No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving. But when that dark mass of ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, that state is peaceful and sublime. That is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ For their noble wisdom is the faculty of wisdom.

When a noble disciple has tried again and again, recollected again and again, entered immersion again and again, and understood with wisdom again and again, they will be confident of this: ‘I have previously heard of these things. But now I have direct meditative experience of them, and see them with penetrating wisdom.’ For their faith is the faculty of faith.”

I have always felt, reading some of his works, that he crushes all standpoints arrived at due to reasoning, hammering out how things exist etc. I experienced this as crushing the Path of thinking, reasoning, logic, as the Path to Truth.

Some schools, like Gelugpa, are very much involved in thinking, philosophy, reasoning, debating. I doubt if this is all really conducive to the goal. But i also think that many people, like Vacchagotta, are really in love with philosophy, thinkers by nature, and maybe for them it is good to discover that all these standpoints are weak and wobble and is not true knowledge on which on can rely. There is always this that supports a standpoint and others things that undermine it.

But i also feel, this can become an endless activity, and more a distraction then something conducive to the goal.

Hi again Venerable,

But to refute certain metaphysical positions is exactly to introduce a metaphysical position too. Some atheists may say, “I don’t know what there is, but there is no God.” Then they’re taking a metaphysical position on God. It may not be an affirmative one, but it is one nonetheless, namely that God doesn’t exist. It is not agnosticism, in other words. Nor I-don’t-care-about-it-either-way-ism.

Likewise, when Nagarjuna argues things in the world are empty of any inherent quality such as motion, that is a metaphysical position, even if it’s a negative one. And it is a metaphysical position that is alien to the early discourses, so from their perspective it introduces a new discussion as well. I don’t think this is a “straw-man”, certainly not according to how many initiated people seem to understand Nāgārjuna. (Perhaps it is a straw-man according to your understanding of his works, but without having sufficiently explained it, you can’t assume that others share that understanding.)

You mentioned some suttas about metaphysics. But where exactly in the canon is the Buddha arguing against realism, against the notion that a cup has a real inherent existence? I’ll go out on a limb and say nowhere. Yes, there were people who took external things as a self, like the World of the Upanishadic Brahmans. But I feel like you’re missing something here. To take something as a self (atta) is not the same as taking it to have some abstract essence, an essence independent of oneself (including when it can be known/experienced). The concept of attā in the Pali canon is more complex than just “essence”. It is directly connected to notions of ‘me’ and ‘mine’. I’ll post something more about that in a while.

But for now, to think “this is my cup, this cup is my self” is problematic for liberation, but to think “there is a cup, a cup has essence” isn’t (other than being a waste of time :smiley: ).

At least, you haven’t convinced me of how it would be problem, nor are my fellow skeptics here convinced, it seems. We got stuck here:

This still needs explaining I feel, for your view to be coherent.

But for sake of argument I’ll grant you that such realism may be problematic. Then that still doesn’t mean we should therefore conclude there is no inherently existing cup. We could still take the route of I-don’t-care-about-it-either-way (i.e. pragmatism).

And I think that’s what the Buddha is doing when redefining “the world”. He’s just telling us: focus on your own life and experience (i.e. suffering), and on what you take to be your self.

So it seems the Buddha and Nāgārjuna are taking a fundamentally different approach to this. In an essay that has the explicit aim of reconciling Nāgārjuna’s philosophy with the Pāli canon, Vélez de Cea likewise still summarizes: “In the Pāli suttas the concept of self refers to the personal identity of someone […]. In the MMK the concept of self can refer either to the personal identity of someone [or] to the impersonal philosophical identity of something.” I think this is pretty much right, with the sidenote that ‘personal identity’ is a wide concept that can also refer to what most of us consider externals. I’ll get back to this in a separate post below.

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Left. :smiley: I wouldn’t say that it follows from it. It is intrinsic to it, it goes both ways. Assuming an inherent existence in the aggregates creates a sense of ‘I’, but assuming an ‘I’ also creates a sense of inherent existence in the aggregates. I think both are important, while it feels to me you’re considering the former alone. And I actually think that fundamentally it is the latter that creates wrong views. E.g. views of eternalism/annihilation really stem from a sense of ‘I’, not from a metaphysical philosophy of an inherent existence.

I’ll explain why I think these things, but first a little correction. It’s not about whether things are “worth” taking as me and so forth, but whether they really are. I take kallaṃ here to mean “fit” as in “proper”, i.e. correct. But either way, it’s only the negative statement that’s worded with kallaṃ; the positive statement isn’t. I assume you won’t have objections to this, but for clarity, let me quote:

“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?” - "No, venerable sir.” […]

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ (SN22.59)

This correct understanding already indicates that the concept of self is inherently bound to ‘mine’ and ‘I’, so that ‘personal identity’ is not a bad way to describe what it is about. That’s what I’ll try to argue here. For now, note it says: “not my self”.

So hear me out… :slight_smile: At some point I translated attā as ‘essence’ because I had similar views as you, Venerable (or what it seems you have). But I realized the concept is bigger than that.

First, I think you argued from anicca to anattā in an earlier post. Basically you said, something being impermanent means it has no inherent existence. Sure. We can of course contemplate that way, from anicca straight to anatta in that sense. Plenty of sutta support for it, and I do it too.

But the Buddha is also saying: “What is suffering, is without self.” (yaṃ dukkhaṃ tadanattā, e.g. SN22.15) We can smuggle in anicca here again by saying, “Well, suffering means impermanence.” But that’s not necessarily true. There is also the suffering of pain itself (dukkhadukkhatā), and the suffering of fabrications (sankhatadukkhatā).

Now, if the concept of attā was purely about a metaphysical essence, then we can’t conclude from pain itself that there is no atta. Why? Because the essence could be inherently painful. Pain would just be it’s inherent nature. People in DN1 claimed such an attā.

So we can’t arrive at anattā from dukkha directly, if we take atta to just be an inherent existing thing. There must be more to this attā.

Here the Anattalakkhana Sutta has something more to say. To not get overly focused on “form”, let’s pick as the aggregate consciousness instead. I’ll use my translation:

Consciousness is without a self. If consciousness were one’s self, you could control it, thinking, ‘My consciousness won’t be like this; it will be like that!’ and it would not result in affliction. But because consciousness is without a self, you can’t control it, and it results in affliction. (SN22.59)

Here the Buddha is actually telling us how we can conclude from dukkha that consciousness is not a self. A self has the quality to control itself. It could make itself this way and that. So there is an assumption of agency in, an assumption of an I that can do something to change something.

The Buddha’s argument is: If we could change things, we would make them happy. But things aren’t happy. Therefore, an agency or I that can change things doesn’t exist. That’s how from dukkha we get to anatta.

So therefore, in the Pāli canon attā doesn’t just have the idea of ‘essence’. It’s a much wider concept.

That’s one indication for what I’m saying. But more so, if we think of atta purely in terms of “inherent essence”, the whole passage falls apart:

Consciousness is without an inherent essence (attā). If consciousness were an inherent essence, you could control it, thinking, ‘My consciousness won’t be like this; it will be like that!’ and it would not result in affliction. But because consciousness is without an inherent essence, you can’t control it, and it results in affliction.

While the Buddha doesn’t directly state here that consciousness does change, clearly it is implied that it can change, just in ways that are beyond control. But now, here’s the point: An inherent existence can’t change! That’s exactly what it means to inherently exist: that it remains the same. So attā cannot mean inherent existence here.

The Buddha meant something else. There’s more to the attā than just ‘essence’. Or, there can be more to it, at least, depending on context. It’s more close to a traditional understanding of soul or, indeed, a self; something we expect to have control over (but don’t because it doesn’t exist).

Of course that also makes complete sense if we consider how the word attā is used in non-philosophical contexts: exactly to refer to the person’s conventional self. As far as I know, it never refers to some inherent essence of something physical or such, but please correct me if so. Usually, that would be words like sāra instead. Which the Buddha occasionally also used to explain anatta (SN22.95), but that doesn’t make atta exactly equal to sāra. That’d be saying apples are fruits so all fruits are apples.

Also, in MN22 views of self are said to arise because of taking things as an I, not from taking something (like a cup) to have an inherent essence. Since all views of self are the result of view of assuming an I (or assuming you are a being), they are intrinsically psychological:

This is how you focus improperly: ‘In the past, did I exist? Did I not exist? What was I? In what way was I? What was I after I was what? In the future, will I exist? Will I not exist? What will I be? In what way will I be? What will I be after I am what?’ Or you are perplexed about the present, thinking: ‘Do I exist? Do I not exist? What am I? In what way am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’ [I.e. annihilation is the belief that the being who you think you are won’t go anywhere.]

If you focus improperly like that, one of six views will arise and seem actual and real: ‘I have a self,’ or ‘I don’t have a self,’ or ‘I perceive a self with a self,’ or ‘I perceive what is not a self with a self,’ or ‘I perceive a self with what is not a self,’ or ‘this self of mine is the one who speaks and feels, who in various realms experiences the results of good and bad deeds; it is permanent, constant, eternal, unchanging, existing for all eternity.’

Even in the Kaccānagotta Sutta, the wrong view of self is not just worded as attā but attā me, ‘my self’. It’s all personal again, about who we take ourselves to be. So even here, even if attā were to only mean ‘essence’ in a general sense, it’s still only about what we take to be our essence. External cups have nothing to do with the wrong view even then, as long as we don’t take them to be our attā. Same in the Anattalakkhana Sutta and many other places.

There’s more passages that point at all this, but in sum: that’s why I stopped translating attā as ‘essence’.


And this is also why earlier I brought up the physicalist/materialist who believes in quantum physics, asking you how they would be annihilationists. Let’s say she believes the body is a collection of quantum possibility wave functions that only mathematically exist. And the mind is just an epiphenomenon of those wave functions. This wouldn’t even be an extreme view amongst scientists nowadays.

Now, I think you’ll have a hard time explaining why such a person would be an annihilationist, if it was all about perceiving some inherent existence in matter and the body, like how you explained a more naturalist materialist earlier.

I would instead just replay: Well, she may hold that physicalist view in theory, but psychologically she still has a sense of self. The concept of self is inherently bound up with ‘me’ and ‘mine’. Since she is not a noble one, psychologically, she simply can’t just believe that the body will cease at death (or that it is just quantum waves no longer collapsing or whatever). She feels she will cease as well. Hence it’s annihilation. Because of that sense of identity.

So when we come down to it, it doesn’t really have much to do with how people like her relate to matter. It’s all about what they believe will happen to “themselves” after death. It is the exact same for annihilationists in the suttas, I’d say. And it’s the same with natthitā, which in my view isn’t some abstract philosophy about inherent essences being annihilated but a feeling of “I won’t exist”. Hence my ‘nonsurvival’, which I plan to support further later.

Come to think of it: A single-life-belief materialist who holds their body is just matter, that matter is just a form of energy, and energy can’t be destroyed, in your view would have to be an eternalist. Why wouldn’t they? After all, they see some permanent essence in rūpa.

Be that as it may, I hope you now understand why I think such approaches are missing a big part of what I think matters to Buddha-dhamma from a psychological perspective. It doesn’t ask questions like, where does this sense of I come from? If we reduce anattā to such contemplations as “form has no inherent existence” we’re likely to leave much of this important psychology out. (This contemplation is also already sufficiently captured by that of impermanence, by the way. To say “form is impermanent” is exactly equal to say “form has no inherent essence”. But anattā is wider than that. To say “form is anatta” also means “form is not me, not mine”.)

Lastly, if anatta was only about an inherent essence, it would already be fully understood by stream winners. To say “consciousness is not an inherent essence” would have no more pragmatic value for them. But the contemplation of anatta is still useful for trainees; the suttas make that quite clear. The point is, for them it’s more so about removing the subtle tendencies of “I” that still linger. Not about some view of essence within one’s being. (Which is arguably the sakkaya ditthi, which the stream enterer already abandoned. Though the term is ambiguous to me.)

This is also why “not I” is in a sense deeper than “no inherent essence”. It get to a more fundamental problem.

I’ll probably leave it at that. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the exchange. You’ve nuanced my take on Nāgārjuna a bit. But I still don’t think it’s exactly getting down to the core of what the Buddha was on about. And I’m still sure that this is not what the Kaccanagotta sutta was about.

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Hi all,

A little addition to the essay, thanks to @Dogen pointing out SA233. I can still edit the opening post at the moment, but I decided to post this separately. I think it’s a nice example of how in text studies we can also create a certain hypothesis (e.g. my earlier essay) which is confirmed later.


A sūtra from the Chinese Saṁyukta Āgama brings all these matters together. The following is Charles Patton’s translation:

It was then that the Bhagavān told the monks, “Now, I will discuss the world, the world’s formation, the world’s cessation, and the path to the world’s cessation. Listen closely, and well consider it!

What is the world? It’s the six inner sense fields. What are the six? The inner sense field of the eye … ear … nose … tongue … body … the inner sense field of the mind.

What is the world’s formation? It’s craving, delight, and greed for a future existence. Those things are attached to its formation.

What is the world’s cessation? There’s craving, delight, and greed for a future existence. The attachment of those things to its formation is stopped without remainder. Having been abandoned, rejected, and ended, then one is free of desire, and it ceases, stops, and disappears.

What is the path to the world’s cessation? It’s the eightfold path, which is right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right method, right mindfulness, and right samādhi.”1

The sūtra defines ‘the world’ as “the six inner sense fields”, which refers to the being’s sense organs/faculties. This definition is similar to that of Ānanda at §2, and even more direct. The sūtra is also reminiscent of the Buddha’s reply to Rohitassa at §3, which I would now like to rephrase as: “I declare ‘the world’, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that makes its cease, just with respect to these six senses.” (The original instead has “this fathom-long body along with its mind and perception”.) This reply is, of course, a reference to the four truths of the Noble One:2 on suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that makes it cease. The sūtra is very similar to a Pāli discourse on these four truths, in which suffering is also defined as the six inner sense fields, i.e. the six senses.3 The conscious experiences that result from these senses are implied in this definition too, because without consciousness there can be no suffering. It’s the sights and smells and such which are the suffering,4 not so much the senses themselves. But the definition of suffering as the six senses may also imply that the sense organs are also a source of suffering such as pain and sickness, just like the body as a whole.5

In our sūtra the origination of the world of the six senses comes about through craving, delight, and greed for a future existence. The Pāli discourse similarly talks of delight and enjoyment that accompany ‘the craving that leads to a next life’ (taṇhā ponobbhavikā). This statement, that the origin of the world of the world is the craving that leads to a next life, does not mean that the six senses originate the very moment we have this craving. Like I noted earlier when showing the difference between two interpretations of ‘the world’, the six senses originate at birth, not at momentary instances of consciousness. So the six senses originate through rebirth—and rebirth in turn is caused by craving. So he causal sequence is: ‘craving › rebirth › the senses’.

The sūtra’s statement on the world’s cessation I find particularly interesting. There is no close equivalent in Pāli, so we can’t give it too much weight, and Chinese can be a bit harder to parse as well. But it seems to be saying that craving is abandoned first, and only thereafter, at a later time, does the “world” cease. This happens when the enlightened being passes away. This is also implied in the Noble One’s third truth in the Pāli discourse. Cessation is a process that takes time. Suffering does not stop immediately when craving stops, but it does at the full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of an enlightened being. The Buddha indeed says elsewhere that the enlightened ones know that the senses will cease and that no new senses will arise in any place (of rebirth).6 So the cessation sequence is not ‘no craving › no world of the senses’ but ‘no craving › no rebirth after death › no world of the senses’.

When the six senses cease, so does the “world” of the being, as well as suffering. To combine a series of three discourses on these terms:

“Samiddhi, when the sense of sight does not exist, and when sights, sight-consciousness, and things cognized by sight-consciousness do not exist, then there is no being/suffering/world and no designation ‘being/suffering/world’. When the sense of hearing … the sense of smell … the sense of taste … the sense of touch … the mind does not exist, and when mental phenomena, mind-consciousness, and things cognized by mind-consciousness do not exist, then there is no being/suffering/world and no designation ‘being/suffering/world’.”7

The final paragraph of the Chinese sūtra says the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of the world. In a footnote to the discourse with Rohitassa, Venerable Bodhi says about this path:

The six sense bases are themselves conditioned, having arisen from a chain of conditions rooted in one’s own ignorance and craving. Thus by removing ignorance and craving the re-arising i.e. rebirth of the six sense bases can be prevented, and therewith the manifestation of the world is terminated. This end of the world cannot be reached by travelling, but it can be arrived at by cultivating the Noble Eightfold Path. Perfect development of the path brings about the eradication of ignorance and craving, and with their removal the underlying ground is removed for the renewed emergence of the six senses, and therewith for the reappearance of a world.

So in brief, the origin of the world of the six senses is rebirth, which is the result of craving supported by ignorance. This world ends when the enlightened being passes away. At that time all perceptions of the external, conventional world cease too, so in a sense that world also comes to an end.

When the Kaccānagotta Sutta mentions the origination and cessation of the world, this is what it refers to as well.


  1. SĀ233, translation Dharmapearls.net, Charles Patton (tr.).
  2. For ariyasacca as ‘truth of the Noble One’ see note 12 in Seeds, Paintings and a Beam of Light: Similes for Consciousness in Dependent Arising.
  3. SN56.14
  4. The sense objects are often said to be suffering; see for example SN35.226. Also SN35.5, SN35.11, SN35.144, SN35.180–182, SN35.198–200, and SN35.216–218. For the six senses as suffering see for example SN35.2, SN35.81, SN35.141, and SN35.152.
  5. AN10.60 speaks of diseases of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.
  6. SN48.53
  7. SN35.66–68. SN 35.65 repeats the same for Death (Māra, lit. Killer), which here is a personification of death.
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Hi,

Hmmm… I post this whole reply, and all you respond to is the obvious joke at the end? :pensive: Bit disappointing. I still think it was a good joke, though. :rofl:

So perhaps you can explain what exactly is “wonky” about what I said?

Either way, by “EBT” I meant the early Buddhist texts. Nobody ever says “I am EBT” or something like that.

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I think it can be both. Because mind is not always sensing something. It has also moments without sensing something. In that context the sense domains arises in this very life at this very moment too.
And also totally cease too.

I also feel that MN28 is important but often ignored. Many people believe, i think, that a sense-vinnana, for example an eye-vinnana, manifest when there is some sense-object in the field of the eye and sense-contact more or less happens automatically.

But MN28 says it is not like that. There can be objects in the visual field, and still no eye vinnana manifest. There must also be an element of engagement. That is a prerequisite for any sense vinnana to arise. I believe this engagement is a form of subconscious craving, a volition that causes that our minds are also captured by something sensed.

If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding conscious engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.
But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding conscious engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness. MN28

This means, i believe, that when we just open our eyes and there are immediately all kinds of things seen, we must not think that this means eye vinnana’s manifest. But only when our eyes and mind are caught by something seen, only then we can say eye vinnana manifest now. There must be some element of engagement with what is seen. Then we are really consciously aware of what we see. But merely seeing is not the manifestation of eye vinnana’s. Often in seeing or sensing there is no element of engagement at all.

In other words, no connection happens between our senses, or ability to sense, and things in the world, when from our mind no element of engagement arises. But merely seeing, hearing etc is different. No sense vinnana’s manifest.

I feel it is important to see and know this difference between just seeing (no manifestation of eye vinnana) and being caught by something seen (manifestation of eye-vinnana).

Merely seeing can be understood as arising and ceasing eye vinnana’s without that they becoming manifest or establish in the mind. They remain unseen vinnana’s as it were. Without an element of engagement from our minds, vinnana’s are adinassana vinnana’s.

For an arahant all vinnana’s have become anidassana. For a worlding not. But also worldling, or a defiled mind, has anidassana vinnna’s. When mind is purified from all that causes engagement (anusaya) all vinnana’s become anidassanam.

I like it :grinning:, so it will not liked by many.

Good point.

Yes, the mind is a bit of an outlier, because there is no real mind “organ” like there are physical sense organs.

I think, though, that it is analogous to it. In this context mano (mind) refers to a general capacity to experience mental phenomena. We can say this capacity restarts at every birth and ceases at parinibbāna.

This is not necessarily true Venerable. To form this conclusion you rely upon the Law of the Excluded Middle which is an assumption and not necessary.

I honestly don’t know how to continue the discussion without all parties involved understanding the difference between an affirming negation and a non affirming negation and the role of the Law of the Excluded Middle in forming your conclusion Venerable.

I will try once more:

  • The current king of France is bald

There are two ways to refute this statement:

  1. The current king of France is not bald

  2. It is not the case that, “the current king of France is bald”

The first is ambiguous and is called an affirming negation. It seems to imply that there is such a thing as “the current king of France” and that this thing is “not bald.”

The second is called a non-affirming negation. It does not imply anything positive. Its only role is to refute the assertion without implying anything else whatsoever.

This is a non-rigorous and informal way of understanding the difference between formal logics with and without the Law of the Excluded Middle. Suffice it to say that this can be - and has been - studied and made completely formal and rigorous and the logic you get without assuming the Law of the Excluded Middle is just as powerful as with.

Informally, the Law of the Excluded Middle says that every negative assertion necessarily implies some positive opposite assertion. It is an assumption and is itself not necessary.

The conclusion you come to is echoing a long and ancient debate between Bhaviveka and Chandrakirti. To understand and appreciate this debate you have to study formal logics and the role of the Excluded Middle. I don’t think it is possible to appreciate both sides position without doing so regardless which side you end up supporting.

:pray:

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Thanks for that. That makes sense logically. I take back what I said about refuting metaphysics being new metaphysics in general. :+1: And sorry at Ven Vaddha for not getting his point.

But I’m not yet convinced that it was wrong in context of Nāgārjuna or our wider discussion.

Your example of a bald King of France is clear. But how about our discussion:

  • There is a cup.
  • There is no cup.
  • It’s not the case that there is a cup.

In this case the latter two seem to be saying the same thing. Or am I phrasing it wrong? Logically there doesn’t seem to be room here for a third possibility.

Or would you say this discussion is not what Nāgārjuna was about in the first place?

(I perhaps oversimplified it, to Ven Vaddha it was important to say “there is a cup and it is experienced”. Seems like that’s the crux.)

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“Then is this your view: ‘A realized one still exists after death. This is the only truth, other ideas are silly’?”
That’s not my view, Vaccha.”
“Then is this your view: ‘A realized one no longer exists after death. This is the only truth, other ideas are silly’?”
That’s not my view, Vaccha.”

We can rephrase to:

  • There is a Buddha after death
  • There is not a Buddha after death
  • It is not the case that, “there is a Buddha after death.”

The third is not the same as the second. The Buddha did not rely on negations = positive affirmations of an opposite. Take a look also at SN 24.1. The Buddha refutes a metaphysical view of a motionless substance(?) which doesn’t mention any self or I. But he says it is do to grasping and insisting on the aggregates. :pray:

The same is true of the cup. I’m simply saying that by focusing on sense experience, we can refute the view that the cup is a real substance. That doesn’t mean we have to build a new metaphysical world view. We just focus on dependent arising of our ‘world’ without adding on ontological commitments.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your understanding, venerable. I drafted a reply before your responses. I’ll try and get back sometime.

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I have not investigated all this but i have learned that Buddha not really talks about sense organs as with what we perceive the world. This is always mind. There can be senses but no experiences.
So, also when sutta’s teach that we sense the world with senses that does not refer to physical senses of the eye, ear etc.