Theravi Araga and Buddhataal : Musical system of Early Buddhist Masters?

The Watercooler
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Just came across a few youtubes on the subject of Early Buddhist Theravi Music:. Cutting and pasting from the descriptions below the videos here.

To revive and promote the ‘almost’ lost music theory and compositions of Buddhist masters, known as Theravi Sangīta Theras (wise elders), in remote parts of Pakistan, Afganistan & India. We have met two such theras, one of whom has now sadly passed away. These elders are also referred to as ‘Mausiqi-ke-Theray’ in Pakistan.

This music theory, originally known as ‘Theron ka Sangīta Vigyan’ (Literal meaning: Scientific music knowledge of the elders) now called ‘Theravi Music’, has been hidden from the masses for approximately two millennia, i.e. since the fall of the Buddhist Mauriyan empire which was accompanied with genocide of Buddhist monks and annihilation of Buddhist monasteries. With this came the decline of Buddhism and Buddhist thought throughout the very land (Jambudeep) in which the Great Buddha lived. Naturally, with this came the destruction of Buddhist music too.

Our twofold aim (both being two side of the same coin):

(1) To internationally spread/promote Buddha’s wisdom of compassion, justice, tolerance, peace and security through music as taught by the “Mausiqi ke Tharey”.
(2) To revive/ rekindle/promote the philosophy, psychology, beauty, mathematics and science behind …
Anyone who is interested in knowing more about Buddhatala with the maestros of Theravi Music, please PM me.

This is surprising to me because in Theravada Vinaya there is strong discouragement for monastics to not only perform music but even to listen or watch such perfomances is forbidden. In Bengal however, in Buddhist ceremonies, Tagore song (some specifically written to pay homage to the Buddha) and devotional songs like Buddha Kirtan are sung by lay people in front of monastics.

Link: Tisarana & Pancasila in Buddhataal and Theravi music

Rāga means “colour or hue” in Sanskrit but appears in Buddhist texts as a form of blemish, personal impurity or fundamental character affliction. As a philosophical concept, the term refers to greed, sensuality, desire or attachment to a sensory object. It includes any form of sensual passion as well as attachments to, over excitement and pleasure derived from objects of the senses. Some scholars render it as “craving”.

Psychological importance of arāgas: According to Theravi Scholars, rāga (or lobha) is a Buddhist concept of character affliction or poison referring to any form of greed, sensuality, lust, desire, craving or “attachment to a sensory object”. Purpose of Shastriya Sangeet Rāgas is to evoke or enhance certain desirable emotion/feelings; i.e. INTENTIONALLY created sensual ragas. In Shastriya sangeet, it is believed that this can only be achieved by using five or more notes.

Purpose of Theravi Music ARĀGAS:
To reduce arising of new emotions and to prevent escalation of any emotion that has already arisen. When this is the aim of a Theravi composer, musicians use less than five notes. That is why such a musical scale is called an a-rāga, i.e. a non- rāga.

Benefits of Arāgas:
The use of arāgas leads to a reduction in the intensity of emotions. The reduction of (or non reaction to) emotions lead to increase in calmness. The absence of emotions (or non-reaction to all emotions) lead to total calmness

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW3KSXSoNGk
All these are new information to me. Just posting for comments and discussion.

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The Snp as a libretto
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This article from the group that seems to be presenting most of this alludes to “Theravi Scholars” but also claims that

‘Theravi Music’, has been hidden from the masses for approximately two millennia, i.e . since the fall of the Buddhist Mauriyan empire which was accompanied with genocide of Buddhist monks and the complete annihilation of Buddhist monasteries.

Because this depiction of the fall of the Mauryan empire and the total eradication of Buddhism in India immediately following it doesn’t seem very accurate (though I must admit I can’t confirm whether or not it is), every source on this online that I can find doesn’t provide any evidence other than the same few claims (all with the exact same wording) and all seem to derive from the same two people I personally think these claims are spurious.

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Thank you @saavaka for doing further investigation. I guess I was reading about the change of frequency of Western musical instruments from natural frequency of 432 Hz to 440 HZ. Recently I was trying to order a Harmonium from India that is available in these two tunings, which I never saw before.

Here is one YouTube explaining the impact of this switch, The Frequency that Changed Music Forever.

Could language went through similar shift in vibration from oral to written tradition? Sanskrit and Prakrit are both ancient Indo-Aryan languages, but they differ in their usage and perceived status. Sanskrit, meaning “refined” or “perfected,” was a literary and liturgical language of elite, while Prakrit, meaning “natural,” was the language of common people possibly from oral tradition.

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Could language went through similar shift in vibration from oral to written tradition?

I don’t really know anything about vibrational frequencies in language or music.

Both Sanskrit and Prakrits in literary use were both recited/spoken and written from what I know, and I think once writing became normalised they were both recited and written (not really sure about Prakrits other than Pāli though) so I doubt the normalisation of writing impacted their vibrational frequency.

Sanskrit and Prakrit are both ancient Indo-Aryan languages, but they differ in their usage and perceived status. Sanskrit, meaning “refined” or “perfected,” was a literary and liturgical language of elite, while Prakrit, meaning “natural,” was the language of common people possibly from oral tradition.

To give a broad summary of my understanding of the topic, Sanskrit refers to the Indo-Aryan dialect initially used by the Brahmins spanning from the Old Indo-Aryan language of Vedic Sanskrit used in the Ṛgveda (c. 1500 BCE) to its standardisation as a Middle Indo-Aryan language as Classical Sanskrit (c. 600-400 BCE) which was later adopted as the primary language of Indian literary tradition and the elite, while Prakrits (plural) were a class of Middle Indo-Aryan languages (mostly/probably) descended from Old Indo-Aryan languages other than Vedic Sanskrit, many of which were common spoken languages, some of which later found extensive use in liturgical and literary settings.

I personally wouldn’t say that Prakrits were only common dialects or never used as languages of the elite for several reasons. To me, it seems like the idea that Sanskrit was the language of the elite and Prakrits exclusively common dialects is just a misconception based on a variety of factors.

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I am not familiar with the Theravi Music Theory. Or the Raga theory it says it subverts. But in practice there are “ragas” that use 4 or less notes.

I do possess some training in both Indian and Western classical music - there are plenty of music written with 4 notes or less that are designed to provoke strong emotional reactions and successfully do so. A famous raga with 4 notes or swaras in Carnatic music is Raga Lavangi (Lavangi (scale) - Wikipedia) - and a famous composition with this is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArglXQZGgk0 - And this composition is neither unemotional nor unmoving to most listeners. It is (by most informed accounts) an intensely moving musical performance.

But even if it can be devoid of emotional valence, doesn’t the fact that “musical” performances with just 1 or 2 note scales can sound pleasing (and therefore lead to craving) mean that all music/sounds must be approached similarly from a Theravadin standpoint?

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very well written👏. i think all music creates craving, and there are verses in favor of music and against music in Buddhism. but i think music is a must for orally preserving teachings, and oral teaching doesn’t need to be in specific forms to sound “music” , but how it is said, repeated.

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I have little formal training in music myself, but I feel the discordant nature of some modern music in my ear. Sometimes some background music in YouTube video images sounds very discordant to me and my inner sense is repelled. It is not the number of notes I am concerned about, but the frequency, pitch and physical vibration of the notes themselves in some modern and even classical music played with modern 440 hz instruments.

440 Hz is the modern, global standard “concert pitch” for Western music since 20th century, making instruments sound bright and mentally energetic for mainstream compatibility, while 432 Hz is a lower, alternative tuning often linked to nature, meditation, and healing, perceived as softer, calmer, and more harmonious, aligning with Earth’s frequencies (Schumann Resonance) and potentially calming and lowering heart rate.

I certainly do not think all music creates craving. Music is considered universal language, because it transcends cultural and linguistic barrier communicating emotion and experiences directly through sound vibration, pitch, rhythm (Dhamma chanda) which activate similar brain responses across people in unfamiliar cultures. Growing up with Tagore songs in Bengali culture I know the power of human emotions and words to uplift, expand and deepen human consciousness to divine, cosmic and universal level.

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Buddhism was active in India for about 1500 years after the Mauryan era. It only withered away around the 12th-13th centuries primarily due to medieval Islamist jihadism in India practised by central asian invaders, who were unusually ferocious on Buddhists and their doctrines even more than on Hindus.

I have not heard of any such thing as a Theravi Music or Pali Music - it may be a newly invented Music genre that is being superimposed on history to attract a modern following.

But there is a significant body of Sanskrit music consisting of thousands and thousands of raga based songs. This one is a sample of a Hindu poem in Sanskrit set to Indian Classical Music and sung as a song

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Totally wrong, it’s like saying today’s english is mother of many languages like hindi,french,german,italian…..

Samskrit was used for the language that was “refined”, prakrit was used for the language from which it was refined because of the influence of Iranian languages and Greek, it was a “common sense” till dogma set during british era. But now, many historians are accepting that pali/prakrit indeed did not come from sanskrit, instead could be older than it. The “middle era” thing is sooooo bad that prakrit is considered middle indo european language JUST BECAUSE IT HAS MANY PROOF OF THAT TIME(although that turkey clay’s words of mittani-hittie treaty are closer to prakrit than “sam-skrit”) But sanskrit does not even have till like 7-8th century AD, THOSE TOO OF BUDDHIST “ALONE”.

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The topic title is not about this, but here is your reply in short.