There is no selfexisting thing in ones experience

Discussion
21

“In that case, when it comes to things that are to be seen, heard, thought, and known: in the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.
“Ettha ca te, mālukyaputta, diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṃ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṃ bhavissati.
When this is the case,
Yato kho te, mālukyaputta, diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṃ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṃ bhavissati;
you won’t be ‘by that’.
tato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tena.
When you’re not ‘by that’,
Yato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tena;
you won’t be ‘in that’.
tato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tattha.
When you’re not ‘in that’,
Yato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tattha;
you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or in between the two.
tato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, nevidha, na huraṃ, na ubhayamantarena.
Just this is the end of suffering.”
Esevanto dukkhassā”ti.

If one thinks there is actual cat besides thinking ‘cat, cat’ in that case one goes beyond what is merely seen and thought. !

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22

Yes correct, thats how a person through paticca sammupada comes into beings

First only body exists as matters, now “you” as energy also exists as if you are matters

While nature of energy law and matter law is different, then there is suffering.

Very well🙏🏻 , this is also samma ditthi

I think this is very conducive and the core of teaching, the fruits alao, its all about how life comes into beings, samsara, dukkha. This is the first noble path; samma ditthi

When one sees that it doesnt matter if the cat is there or virtual or not, but what really matters is how the world that we perceived comes into, the house/karma builder is seen through paticca sammupada.

I recommend you last arahant with relic , sayadaw mogok ‘s sermon

Supposed in an arahant’s experience , the cat doesnt exist , because the seer is never there too, only seeing is there.

If you poke the cat , you already thought it exist and you have motive ,that you’re existing too
As well as if you love the cat.

There is no need to explain the experience , just color is seen, maybe some body reaction but you dont need to react to those experiences nor put importance to it.

But the moment you try to explain , there is self existing already and rounds of suffering is there too

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Could you please give the source reference of your quote (sutta reference)

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SuttaCentral Mālukyaputtasutta

Similar themes also in

SuttaCentral Mūlapariyāyasutta

and SuttaCentral Kāḷakārāmasutta

I note that I don’t agree with none of the translations entirely, i ascertain meaning of them by my own thinking and studying of the Pali original.

They all point to a very subtle and profound reality around upholding that there are actual entities existing vs seeing how [thinking of] entity has come to be. ‘Cat’ is as much of a chariot as ‘myself’.

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Many Thanks for the references. many people like to go to the suttas during discussions here.

Also, I’m just going to move this topic to ‘Discussion’ category, as it is discussion of doctrine, rather than a lighthearted type topic :slight_smile:

If you need to know anything about how the forum operates, please feel free to ask, or send a PM to the moderators. The moderators all have a little shield next to their names.
Hope you enjoy Sutta Central and the forum :smiley:

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I put this in watercooler because i wanted to keep this discussion lighthearted and focused on investigation of ones own experience and being spoken in ones own words instead of being discussion about what suttas say even when a parallel can be found.

I think I have failed because i don’t see that anyone has reflected on the theme in that way and people are speaking mostly of the suttas not of their personal experience and thoughts on the theme…

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Hehe. So difficult to control how other people reply. But that’s dukkhaa for you. And why we Mods sneak around moving things occasionally.

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That’s right @lovegood :slightly_smiling_face:
I’ll try to give a quick background…
The forum isn’t run like a standard chat room. It started off as an adjunct for Sutta Central, to allow all the people working with Bhante Sujato (translators and developers) to talk about the suttas.
Personal practice discussions are discouraged here, rather the focus is on discussion about EBT’s. There are no other forums that really stick to EBTs and many where general discussion may be had.
If you like EBTs and wish to discuss the meaning, translation or interpretation, you are very welcome to do so.
We apply this discipline here, as all topics are archived. There is much scholarly work on EBTs accessible here, through essays, audio visual, and the reading guides.

Have a look around the site, there are many wonderful resources. Enjoy :pray: :dharmawheel: :slightly_smiling_face:

And there is space to relax and have fun… sorry my reply has come off more serious than I intended… but it wasn’t me :wink: :blush:

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Add one more to the list

“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In what is seen there must be only what is seen, in what is heard there must be only what is heard, in what is sensed there must be only what is sensed, in what is cognized there must be only what is cognized. This is the way, Bāhiya, you should train yourself. “And since for you, Bāhiya, in what is seen there will be only what is seen, in what is heard there will be only what is heard, in what is sensed there will be only what is sensed, in what is cognized there will be only what is cognized, therefore, Bāhiya, you will not be with that; and since, Bāhiya, you will not be with that, therefore, Bāhiya, you will not be in that; and since, Bāhiya, you will not be in that, therefore, Bāhiya, you will not be here or hereafter or in between the two—just this is the end of suffering.” SuttaCentral

I’d recommend Dhamma overground / Dho for discussion into personal practise

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May I submit that the perception of Anatta, alongwith the perception of Dukkha and Anicca is meant to be used as a tactical tool to understand and overcome suffering.
To illustrate… Have you ever been in attendance when someone has died? One moment there is a person there… their eyes and body are reactive to you. The next moment… there’s a subtle shift… and there is only form- no person… No reactivity to your stimulation.
Now, if you are of the view that there is a person X there who is no more… it would be very upsetting to you.
But if you can make the slight shift in thinking to seeing that there was just a process there… that process has simply stopped, like a lamp going out… this might be less stressful to you.
:pray:

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There are different ways of dealing with unskillful thoughts as per MN20

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Hi,
Thank you for sharing this. Do you know of a pdf version I can download?

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Hi, where did you get this list? I’m unfamiliar with the teaching that “perception” constitutes all of one’s experience, rather that the 5 aggregates do, and they are a different list, insofar as I can guess the Pali behind the English words used here.

Aside from that, I don’t expect your question to get a satisfactory answer, not due to others’ lack of insight but b/c the question itself seems off-target. As I read it, you posited non-self nature of phenomena, then whipped around and asked whether “things” “actually exist” due to - what, mental constructs? (Not sure how the word “deterministically” fits in.) It comes across as garbled. Kindly define what “actually existing” means to you.

In my understanding, the phenomena we experience are, in a way, quite real; what we make of it all, however, is delusional.

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actually existing is not in line with reality

i got the list from watching my experience :crazy_face:

what have you found? did you look at experience and see ‘five aggregates’ or did you learn about ‘five aggregates’ and projected them on your experience? Do you find specific error in the list i have given?

There is no ‘existing entity’ outside the ‘five aggregates’. That means that there is only perception / seeing of an object / entity / phenomena and nothing outside that. The belief that there is actual entity ‘below’, ‘above’ or ‘inside’ or in any way at all is not in line with reality of what is experienced. Existence is delusion. Ordinary person grasps to certain aspects and signs in ones experience and upholds that those mentally constructed entities represent actual reality and that ‘things exist’ / ‘things have souls’.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I have a question. Can you please explain how exactly or on what basis you state that a Cat does not exist in reality?. Anyone can simply repeat after the Buddha that a Cat does not exist in reality. The key to understanding dependent origination IMO is understanding the rationale behind the statement “the Cat does not exist in reality”.
Thank you in advance.
With Metta

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If you see ‘cat’, you see – ‘cat’, there is no ‘cat’ besides that.

The notion of ‘cat’ is conditionally arisen and is not self-present.

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:cat: Personally, I am inclined to overthinki… :hole: :scream_cat:

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Well, I could ask does the Firefox application I am currently using to type this message exist? There’s definitely some kind of software process being run on my computer hardware, which is dependent on other processes like operating system routines, device drivers etc. and probably a whole web of dependent interactions between different components that I’m not wholly familiar with. It’s a process. The pattern recognition going on in my brain recognizes it from past experience as “Firefox” (I could be fooled I guess; someone could write an application that looks and feels just like “Firefox” but with underlying different code). I suppose it exists in that there is some kind of process I am labelling “Firefox” actually running. Of course, it is rather ephemeral (no permanent “Firefox” self :wink: ). If I suddenly power off my machine, where is it then? I suppose then there might be some saved state on my hard drive, with enough information to restart the application from where it left off in the future (is this is equivalent of kamma and sankharas for Firefox? Firefox dependent origination!? :smile: ).

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I am sorry. This statement is too abstract to make any sense. Unless you elaborate in such a way that an ordinary person can understand I will have to conclude that you are just repeating what you have read or heard somewhere without any insight into it.
I do not mean to hurt you. But I have to tell the truth.
With Metta

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Senses get activated by the environment and artificial identities get formed with grasping to certain signs and aspects of sense experience creating a notion of some phenomena. It is the organism trying to make sense of the environment for survival. When those identities are [re]cognized three kinds of feeling are felt in relation to them. Those feelings lead to emotional reaction where one is chasing pleasant feeling or avoiding unpleasant feeling in relation to some identity formed or reacting to apparent presence of what was identified. That reaction leads to and entangles in upholding that there is actual essence behind what was identified and one upholds that what is reacted to and chased around are actual entities existing in time and space and adheres to views in relation to them. With engagement and upholding of those identities as being real - not seeing how they came about, one thinks around and lives in a world of those entities and a self in it which is seen as the seer being aware of those things. None of those things have actual persistent identity or essence, they are artificial labels / conditionally constructed designations which ordinary person thinks as self-existing and representing persistent entity behind ‘cat’ that has a past, present, future, birth, death, that cat actually is like this or that beyond merely what was seen and thought, that there is essence of a cat beyond activity of the senses. It is like living in a dream. To really see and understand this one needs to see how one is seeing what is seen - to become aware how you come to be aware of what you are seeing which goes beyond ordinary awareness and really is subtle and hard to see.

The supernormal eightfold way is how one can eventually become aware of it, i can only repeat what Buddha said that first you need to hear the right Dhamma, listen to it intently, then you need to seriously reflect on it and arrive at the right meaning of what was said, then you verify and ascertain that by your own practice and experience - know and see. I can do my best trying to explain things but that only goes as far as that - what is beyond that i.e. the intent listening, arriving at the right meaning and seeing it by your own eyes is beyond what i can do for you.

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