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Tilakkhana - the 3 marks of what, exactly?


#62

I believe that this has been disproved by the latest research


#63

Do you have a link to such research? I am very interested.


#64

I used to subscribe to a couple science sites, read them much more rarely now. I’m thinking this was new research maybe 3 -5 years ago, maybe in conjunction with neuro-plasticity research. Sorry. general search needed :slight_smile:


#65

The controversy of adult biogenesis

Incidentally, science is horrifying. :slightly_frowning_face:


#66

The cells may remain but as time passes they get refurbished with new molecules and atoms via metabolism
The carbon 14 (C14) of your enamel however sticks around. Just as a metal shard attached to our bones would ! :sweat:


#67

Does this mean continually trying to keep the tilakkhana in mind, and applying them to each and every experience?
I can manage this with anicca, but trying to add the other two feels like a steep hill to climb - it begins to feel like an intellectual exercise.


#68

Noting the arising and passing away (impermanence) of sights, sounds, sensations, smells, tastes and thoughts, if done continuously for a period of time, it becomes apparent that they are impermanent and therefore ‘unsatisfactory’ as said in the SN22.59. This is a progression of the said insight. At some point that whatever is impermanent and unsatisfactory will be seen to be anatta.


#69

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way that is suitable for uprooting all conceivings. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way that is suitable for uprooting all conceivings? What do you think, bhikkhus, is the eye permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”— “Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.” SN 35.32: Suitable for Uprooting (2) (English) - Saḷāyatana Saṃyutta - SuttaCentral


#70

It is a steep hill to climb :smiley: But it’s do-able. It also makes it more apparent why it is so difficult to achieve such a degree of mind training while a householder, etc. It is like any exercise, hard at first, but over time it becomes easier, right up until one can have constant mindfulness and awareness. But again I don’t think this is really possible unless in seclusion. A nice long retreat might be a good place to practice :slight_smile:


#71

Yes, but also essential to do it. Otherwise it’s all swimming in one and the same craving and attachment.


#72

From DN33 we have context for the three marks as we perceive:

Five perceptions that ripen in freedom:
the perception of impermanence, the perception of suffering in impermanence, the perception of not-self in suffering, the perception of giving up, and the perception of fading away.

The three are part of a progression of five that increases in difficulty of understanding:

aniccasaññā, anicce dukkhasaññā, dukkhe anattasaññā, pahānasaññā, virāgasaññā.

Later in DN33 Sixes, having more faith in the training, we advance our horizon to have more tacked on with cessation:

the perception of impermanence, the perception of suffering in impermanence, the perception of not-self in suffering, the perception of giving up, the perception of fading away, and the perception of cessation.

Finally we get the following much later in Sevens. Notice that oddly, dukkha has dropped out. Indeed at this point identity view has been abandoned, so it is redundant, and the exposition deepens:

the perception of impermanence, the perception of not-self, the perception of ugliness, the perception of drawbacks, the perception of giving up, the perception of fading away, and the perception of cessation.

The three marks are therefore the least one needs to perceive in order to have faith and train. With only the first two, one could circle in suffering forever. The third mark is the exit door and leads to the other perceptions eventually.


#73

…and me convinced that Anatta equated to a behavior contaminated by dosa, lobha, moha.:smirk:


#74

Or like “all dhammas are not self”. Self is a part of not-self. How could one say " not mine" if not implying a ‘mine’.

“when he himself is not his own” Dhp. The fool

Dhammapada: The path
"All determinations that determine things increase, decrease, and remain while persisting in a domain which is beyond access or control”—when one understands this with wisdom, one has had enough and turns away from suffering. This is the path of/to purification.

“All determinations which determine things as ‘for me’(ignorance and craving) are dukkha”—when one understands this with wisdom, one becomes nibbida with dukkha. This is the path to purification.

“All _determined things_are determined by determinations which are not mine”—when one understands this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification."

When one understands dukkha, it loses its oppressing nature, it is uprooted. Where once suffering was mine, it now is not mine, its significance has changed. It is still there in a way, but uprooted, floating around without oppressing. The memory of it remains, like a bad smell lingering from cloth which is going through a path of purification.

SN22.89
"Suppose, friends, a cloth has become soiled and stained, and its owners give it to a laundryman. The laundryman would scour it evenly with cleaning salt, lye, or cow dung, and rinse it in clean water. Even though that cloth would become pure and clean, it would still retain a residual smell of cleaning salt, lye, or cowdung that had not yet vanished. The laundryman would then give it back to the owners. The owners would put it in a sweet-scented casket, and the residual smell of cleaning salt, lye, or cowdung that had not yet vanished would vanish."

If I have a terminal illness, the symptoms of that illness are dukkha because ** I** will die, the symptoms signify my demise, but if I am cured yet the symptoms of the previous terminal illness remain, the symptoms no longer signify my death, the symptoms were once dukkha but now are just uncomfortable annoyances which one is nibbida towards.

Dukkha like self/conceit remains only as a residual non-oppressive notion.

" So too, friends, I do not speak of form as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from form. I do not speak of feeling as ‘I am’ … nor of perception as ‘I am’ … nor of sankharas as ‘I am’ … nor of consciousness as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from consciousness. Friends, although the notion ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to upadana, still I do not regard anything among them as ‘This I am."


#75

Yes, all aggregates, senses etc.

The meditative aspect of nibbana means everything stops arising (nirodha). The enlightened mind thereafter doesn’t have craving, anger and ignorance however the aggregates are working but without the attachments.

The suttas say that impermanence is inherently unsatisfactory when there is clinging.

True, but it also says that which is impermanent is also dukkha- or we could happily live in samsara without clinging and Nibbana would be unnecessary and any self denying religion would do the trick!