To Ven. Sujato about Thag 10.1 English Translation

Good Afternoon Bhante, I have read your book “Verses of Senior Monks”. In your Thag 10.1, you translated Lord Buddha mother ( Queen Mahamaya ) after born the Bodhisatta, rejoices in the heaven of the Thirty-Three (Tavatimsa?) But in MN 123, Queen Maya reborn in Tusita. Is your translation is correct? Sorry for my bad English.

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Good question! The Pali text at Thag 10.1#8 is:

Kāyassa bhedā tidivamhi modati
When the body breaks up, she rejoices in the three-heaven

The terms tidiva and similar phrases such as tidasa (lit. “30”) at SN 1.11 are found in verses in the canon as synonyms of tāvatiṁsa, i.e. the Thirty-three gods. But in MN 123 she is said to be reborn in Tusita. So it seems there was some ambiguity in the early days as to which heaven she was reborn in.

In fact, this reflects the background of these realms. In the Buddhist cosmology, generally speaking, the heaven of the Thirty-three is considered to be just one of many realms. Neverthless, in the various stories of gods, with a few well-known exception such as Brahmā or the Four Great Kings, they are almost always said to come from the Thirty-three.

The reason for this is that in Indian cosmology generally, the Thirty-three (or three, or thirty, and so on) is considered to be not just one realm among many, but to include all the gods, at least in some contexts.

This usage predates the Buddha, for we find it in the Brihadarannyaka Upanishad:

Then Vidagdha Sâkalya asked him: ‘How many gods are there, O Yâgñavalkya?’ He replied with this very Nivid: ‘As many as are mentioned in the Nivid of the hymn of praise addressed to the Visvedevas, viz. three and three hundred, three and three thousand.’

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked again: ‘How many gods are there really, O Yâgñavalkya?’

‘Thirty-three,’ he said.

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked again: ‘How many gods are there really, O Yâgñavalkya?’

‘Six,’ he said.

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked again: ‘How many gods are there really, O Yâgñavalkya?’

‘Three,’ he said.

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked again: ‘How many gods are there really, O Yâgñavalkya?’

‘Two,’ he said.

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked again: ‘How many gods are there really, O Yâgñavalkya?’

‘One and a half (adhyardha),’ he said.

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked again: ‘How many gods are there really, O Yâgñavalkya?’

‘One,’ he said.

‘Yes,’ he said, and asked: ‘Who are these three and three hundred, three and three thousand?’

Yâgñavalkya replied: ‘They are only the various powers of them, in reality there are only thirty-three gods.’

He asked: ‘Who are those thirty-three?’

Yâgñavalkya replied: 'The eight Vasus, the eleven Rudras, the twelve Âdityas. They make thirty-one, and Indra and Pragâpati make the thirty-three.

So in the case of Mayadevi, it’s possible that our texts simply contain a contradiction. But perhaps it’s simply the case that here the term tidiva is meant as a general reference to “heaven”.

It does seem a little curious, though, given the prominence of MN 123, that the later texts, so far as I know, seem to agree that she was born in tāvatiṁsa.

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Thx for your answer Bhante. is tavatimsa different from 33 devas?
does tavatimsa resemble United States? This is my friend question.

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The devas there sure seem to like their bling :stuck_out_tongue:

From DN 16:

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It’s the same, tavatimsa is just a Pali word for “thirty-three”.

I’m not sure what you’re asking; do you mean, is it comprised of numerous heavens united as one? If so, no, it’s just a conventional number for the gods who live there.

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Many thanks for your answer Bhante. BTW will you make translation for Therigatha?

It’s my most requested text! Yes, I will, in fact we already have a draft. But the 4 nikayas are my priority for now.

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I’ll keep waiting for better English translation… Thanks for your better translation, Bhante. :slight_smile:

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