Thank you bhante! 
3 Likes
@sujato Many thanks. This will help me structure an intensive practice period I’m organizing.
3 Likes
Thanks for the suggestions bhante.
2 Likes
After reading Sela’s verses in praise of the Buddha, the Lotus Sutra’s lengthy verse sections don’t seem so out of place after all. While the Mahayana sutras might seem verbose to those new to reading them, the Pali suttas can use grandiose language as well.
The first Western scholars who assessed the Buddhist scriptures preferred the Pali suttas for supposedly being “simpler” and therefore more historically accurate. It’s a double standard which has continued to this day.
3 Likes
@Kensho, in fairness, it’s not the “simplicity” that makes the Pali and Chinese suttas more historically accurate. And, I don’t think the Lotus Sutra us judged unfairly relative to the Suttas with respect to authenticity. It’s a later Mahayana composition, though it is a beautiful work of narrative. The parable of the jewel in the robe is a favorite of mine, though I recognize that this was not taught by the historical Buddha. That these Mahayana Sutras are late Asian compositions does not take away from their beauty or value, but it’s best not to suggest that their historicity as Buddhadhamma is unfairly judged. That’s my two baht, anyway.
5 Likes
I don’t believe the Lotus Sutra is word-for-word a discourse of the historical Buddha, and it may very well contain literary embellishments. The same, however, can be said of the Pali suttas.
My personal judgment as to a Buddhist scripture’s authenticity is whether or not its essential concepts go back to the historical Buddha, and that answer everyone must find for themselves.
For millions of East Asian Buddhists to this day, the validity of the Mahayana sutras has been more than just an academic inquiry.
These millions have staked their lives and spiritual destinies on the Mahayana being the teaching of the historical Buddha.
It’s also worth noting that the favorite scripture of Dogen and Hakuin, the most important Zen masters in Japanese history, was the Lotus Sutra. Hakuin even experienced satori while reading it.
I don’t expect those outside the Mahayana to accept the authenticity of Mahayana sutras, much like one shouldn’t expect non-Muslims to accept the validity of the Koran.
I assume that Mahayanists and Theravadins in the Asian world tend to get along with each other. The validity of one Buddhist scripture over another is more of an academic debate.
Most Indonesians are very lazy to read books, especially the thick one. But with this book (and Theragatha too) can stimulate peoples to read more and more… 
Indeed…
4 Likes
This translation was a delight to read. I find it quite amazing that the Buddha, in addition to teaching the deep stuff, takes the time to basically give some life coaching advice to Sigala, and you read it 2500 years later and you’re like, yeah, that’s really good advice actually.
12 Likes
I find it interesting to note how the popularity of certain suttas has changed over the millennia. For example, MN 135 must have been extraordinarily popular in the past given how many versions of it exist in all sorts of languages, including obscure ones. Yet it doesn’t seem to be mentioned by anyone here. Is it because it doesn’t sit comfortably with the more egalitarian ethos of Western Buddhists in modern times?
I’m curious — is there any scholarly work done on what were likely the most popular suttas in early times?
4 Likes
Its more than that, since determining what the Buddha is likely to have taught is central to practicing dhamma.
5 Likes
The spiritual fruit of a Buddhist scripture is more important than whether it can win an academic debate. I would provide you references to the Pali suttas on this if I weren’t at work right now.
I think the popularity of Sutta change by person to person or even country to country.
When I was young my best Suttas was Parabhava Sutta and Singalovada Sutta. (That’s all I knew)
The popularity of Sutta changes with your development of practice and knowledge.
I post this question in Dhamma Wheel and see how the top 10 change with each person even though there is a common element such as gradual training.
2 Likes
Interesting point, and I’m not sure whether this has been studied in detail.
Some suttas, like the Dhammacakka, can be safely assumed as perennial favorites. But say the Kalama Sutta was basically unknown and was only popularized in the 20th century. Or say the Satipatthana Sutta: it was clearly popular through the ages, but it really took off when it became the foundation for modern Theravada meditation in the 20th century.
Incidentally, I discussed this in a Sri lankan dana the other day, and asked people what their top ten was. The first half was pretty much identical with what I put here, then it varied somewhat. There’s definitely a case for including the second and third sermons!
Parabhava Sutta seems to have been very popular in Sri Lanka, but you don’t hear much of it elsewhere. Another interesting case is the Atanatiya, which is well known for chanting, despite its lack of doctrinal content.
8 Likes
Cool, thanks. It’s interesting that scholars aren’t sure of the identity of some of the passages Asoka recommended. I guess that only demonstrates how much Buddhist tradition has changed!
Interesting point. I’ve been reading bits and pieces of the Nikayas off-an-on for some time now, and I’ve come to realize that the ones that “stick” the most with me over time are the ones with nice imagery, such as the foam sutta, the sermon of the seven suns, the Rohitassa sutta (which I remember as the “hologram sutta”), and the simile of the parrot tree. I think Suttas like these are helpful for people who are more visual thinkers.
Also, some of the practical ethical teachings in the Anguttara Nikaya are nice, as they go beyond the standard “5 precept” stock formula; it reminds me of the book of Proverbs in the Bible (vs. the Ten Commandments, which I find boring). The Horn Blower is another favorite of mine, due to its more nuanced take on ethics and kamma, and the way it emphasizes the sheer power of the brahmaviharas.
On the other hand, I find the Satipatthana Sutta as exciting as watching paint dry, but I wonder if that’s because it’s written to teach a technique rather than to inspire. And its a technique I have a hard time relating to, perhaps because I’m not an advanced enough of a practitioner.
I can’t even remember what the first, second, and third sermons are even about lol. I guess it’s because I find their content expressed in more interesting ways elsewhere in the nikayas.
I’m curious to see how my opinion on suttas changes over time.
Good to know! Yeah, I did kinda wonder about the Kalama sutta — it seems very suited to more “modernist” sensibilities. Interesting that the first half of the list seems to have more cross-cultural penetration than the second.
5 Likes
Here are the scripture references I had in mind.
The validity of a Buddhist scripture is determined by the spiritual fruits it encourages in its readers:
“As for the qualities of which you may know, ‘These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome’: You may categorically hold, ‘This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’”
Gotami Sutta: To Gotami
The Buddha also discouraged endless and fruitless debates:
Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — ‘You understand this doctrine and discipline? I’m the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You’re practicing wrongly. I’m practicing rightly. I’m being consistent. You’re not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You’re defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!’ — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
2 Likes
Its not a fruitless debate, since it concerns what is Buddhavacana or not, and thus what is the teachings of the founder or not.
The Buddha was clearly concerned with being misquoted, as in the mahaparanibbana sutta he says:
Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: ‘Certainly, this is not the Blessed One’s utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.’ In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it.
So no, its not just “academic”.
9 Likes
If one were to apply the Gotami Sutta to the Mahayana scriptures as one’s standard, are they conducive or nonconducive to the holy life? What if one were to look at the holy people throughout the history of Mahayana Buddhism with the Gotami Sutta in mind?
It depends on the individual and the scripture, there are thousands of Mahayana works.
1 Like
Any Buddhist scripture, regardless of what it is, can be judged by whether or not it leads to the following qualities:
“As for the qualities of which you may know, ‘These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome’: You may categorically hold, ‘This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’”
Gotami Sutta: To Gotami