Tracing the Buddha's path. My quest to a new understanding of dependent origination

Specific conditionality (Idappaccayatā) – continue

Why DO links are called specific conditionality?

First I will try to make some simple examples:

With milk as a condition, curd arises (Without milk, we cannot make curd).
However, when all milk have turned into curd, milk ceased but curd does not cease.

In this case, if the condition ceased (no more supply of milk), curd does not cease. This is normal conditionality.

Now with this example:

With the candle’s flame as condition, candle’s light arises. (Without candle’s flame, we do not have candle’s light)
Now, when the candle’s flame ceased, candle’s light ceased.

In this case, when candle’s flame ceased, candle’s light also ceased at the same time. In other word, when the condition ceased, the effect ceased. This is specific conditionality in DO. It is that specific condition that always causes the effect.

Look at the links in DO:

Birth → Aging-and-death:

With birth as a condition, there is death (If a being is born, that being cannot avoid death).
When there is no birth then there is no death (We cannot discern the death of the being if the being is not born).

Death may require different combination of conditions from birth, accident, sickness, old age…However, only birth is the condition that always relates to death. Accident is also a condition for death, but it is not always the cause of death. Obviously, not everybody dies because of accident or old age. Therefore, birth is called the specific conditionality of death. This stability of dependent origination is that special feature of birth as the condition for death:

“Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this, the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness, specific conditionality: this is called dependent origination. (SN12.20)

Consciousness → Name-and-form:

With consciousness as a condition, name-and-form arises.
With the cessation of consciousness, cessation of name-and-form.

Because DO link is a specific conditionality, when a DO’s condition ceased, its effect must cease at the same time. That means, if consciousness ceased, name-and-form must cease at the same time. However, many of the current interpretations of name-and-form are about mind-and-body or a being. Therefore, they have trouble explaining the state of a living arahant or a living Buddha. If name-and-form is mind-and-body or a being, and rupa is the physical body of the being, then when consciousness ceased (because ignorance ceased → volitional formations ceased), mind-and-body must cease or the physical body must cease. However, we all know that the mind and body of the Buddha did not cease after his enlightenment.

One can argue that the mind and body do not belong to the Buddha, he no longer takes them as his body and his mind. However, that physical body arises from ignorance by DO in this understanding of namarupa; therefore, with the cessation of ignorance, that physical body must cease at the same time if we take rupa as the being’s body. The rupa that must cease is that physical body, not the relation between the being and the physical body. That’s why we said “whatever is of a nature to arise is all of a nature to pass away”. Because of this dilemma, some people may argue that dependent cessation only applies for the arahant after his final death, so they can make sense the cessation of the body of the being. However, we all know that consciousness is on and off all the time. By this understanding, the body arises and ceases all the time; therefore, it must partially ceased, not completely ceased… However, all of these explanations are wild speculations.

Moreover, some people failed to recognize the importance of the definition of nama in namarupa. The three importance components in nama are intention, attention and contact. They are there for a reason. In the Chinese’s version, the composers obviously tried to force nama as a completed mind with consciousness by defining nama as feeling, perception, saṃskāra and consciousness so it can go with the rupa or the body to form a completed being. This has created many wild interpretations of DO.

According to DO, if there is birth then aging-and-death must follow. There is no escape from this process. This is “the actuality in this, the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness, specific conditionality”. It may not happen right away, but it must happen.

If we can undo birth before the arriving of aging-and-death, then aging-and-death will not come, and we can escape this process. However, after being born, we cannot undo that. Therefore, everybody including arahants and the Buddha must experience that physical aging-and-death. One can argue that the arahants and the Buddha do not experience aging-and-death because there is nobody there to do so. However, that physical aging-and-death must come because of the physical birth as its condition. This is the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness law.

Since we are physically born, we will need to deal with it. There is no escape from physically aging-and-death in this lifetime. However, this birth can be the last or one of the infinity.

Since we cannot undo the current birth, the only way to escape the cycle of birth → aging-and-death is to prevent the future birth. To prevent the future birth, we need to end its condition that is to end bhava. If we can end it in this lifetime, then we can know for sure that this current birth is the last.

In DO, aging-and-death is not a condition for birth. Bhava is its condition. Similar to birth → aging-and-death, the process of bhava → birth may not happen right away. However, birth must happen if bhava does not cease. There is no exception.

Since aging-and-death is not a DO condition for birth, we cannot say for sure that birth must happen after aging-and-death. In other words, we cannot say with aging-and-death as condition, birth arise.

If aging-and-death must immediately be followed by birth then there is no escape from birth. One can argue that the exception is for arahants and the Buddha. However, if this is the case then it is not from DO since DO is the nototherwiseness law.

Let’s look at birth again. Birth (jāti) is defined in DO as:

“The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth (SN12.2)”

To my understanding, this is a new physical birth. We can see in its definition a sense of a new being, a baby at its starting point, the changing of the baby’s form, the appearance of the baby’s senses, the womb. In other word, this has a sense of something new at its starting point. Therefore, I think it does not include spontaneous birth here because spontaneous birth does not indicate a new being at its starting point, but it is a continuing of the previous being in different dimension or realm. However, this is a debatable topic. It depends on how do we understand jāti.

Sorry this is inaccurate assumption. I think the concept has beyond your mind understanding. When mind is still under influence of feeling (block by hindrances), one can’t grasp the whole Buddha teaching.

One needs to have right view first before can proceed further.

As I do not know what you understood, I guess that you may think the Buddha does not experience his aging and death because he does not take that physical body as his body. Therefore, he does not experience what happens to that body. With this logic, the Buddha does not know if the body is in pain or not, or he knows the body is in pain, but he does not experience the pain. However, if he does not experience the pain then how can he know the body is in pain?

To my understanding, the Buddha knows what happens to the body even if he does not take it as his body. When the body is in pain, he knows that, and he mindfully endures it without any trouble with his mind detached from it. When the body needs resting, he knows that and he let it rest. He still experiences what happens to it.

DO process is a fixed law. With birth as condition, aging-and-death. There is no exception. The Buddha was born, aging-and-death must come. However, this is the last for him.

With birth as condition, aging-and-death comes to be’: whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. (SN12.20)

It is better if you can explain your logic. If I am wrong then I will correct my understanding.

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I think you are right here that the Buddhas still experience pain, they still have to experience suffering due to past kamma but another view is the pain is not painful due to their past good kamma, good kamma can dilute bad kamma for example you are destined to experience the hot ray of sun, your good kamma could help you by the availability of umbrella in your hand at that time

an arahant don’t need to do anything they just wait until all their kamma go away at that time they attain parinibbana

but @Joe.C view can be right too as arahants don’t have attachment they don’t view that pain as theirs in the first place, since they view this pain as others they are painless they have no pain,

sn35.80
they see all signs as other. They see the eye, sights, eye consciousness, and eye contact as other. And they also see the pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by eye contact as other. …
They see the mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and mind contact as other. And they also see the pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by mind contact as other. That’s how a mendicant knows and sees so as to give up ignorance and give rise to knowledge.”

acquisition is the root suffering

But let me ask you this.

If one has realized anatta, then they understand the complete DO about how dukkha arises and how dukkha ceases. Then, is there any who/what experiencing dukkha? I hope not.

If one ask who is experiencing birth, old age, and death? Buddha will said this is wrong question to ask. One should said dukkha arise due to conditions and cease due to conditions.

To fully understand, one needs to stop the asava with samadhi (samma sati/samma samadhi/samma vayama) on their daily life.

Buddha or arahant never born, die, age. Hence Nibbana is here and now. Nibbana is not the place that one go after death. So No need to wait till end of life. End of life is just end of the being body/khandhas for Buddha/arahant.

Refer to SN 22.1, For body pain and mental pain.

Most people right away said all existence/experience is suffering. But this is not how Buddha described in Sutta. Unless one has reached arahant which has fully understood the whole tanha (craving). Then it is just a speculation by people. There is no direct experience/practical experience on their part. Their mind hasn’t experience sensual realm, form realm and arupa realm. They don’t know the whole drawback of all these worlds.

But buddha taught these, the noble devotees can experience these even in this human world. If one has experienced these, and know the drawback. Then, they should say all experience is anatta.( Sabbe dhamma anatta)

Teaching of Buddha is direct experience and practical, not just speculate or by reading or by contemplate or by logic.

Hence one needs to stop asava(defilements) to have direct/practical experience and continue to maintain the sati/samadhi through out the daily life. You can see this mentioned in MN 117 great forty and other suttas as well.

In summary, don’t mix mundane view with supermundane teaching. Then, one can surely confused even more and lead to wrong path.

Hope this writing will clarify.

The arahant does not see pain as his pain other’s pain. He sees pain arises and pain ceases, and he knows how bad it is. However, that is still an experience. Without experience, one cannot know the arising and the ceasing of pain. The arahant does not experience mental pain, but he experiences the bodily pain.

One may think that a being cannot be found; therefore, nobody experiences anything. A being is a mere concept; therefore, nobody experiences pain. If this is the case, then we do not need painkiller pills. Since a being cannot be found, one can kill and steal as much as one likes, and nobody will be responsible for that.

Here are some examples:

The Buddha experiences the soreness of the back (MN53)

Then he addressed Venerable Ānanda, “Ānanda, speak about the practicing trainee to the Sakyans of Kapilavatthu as you feel inspired. My back is sore, I’ll stretch it.”

The Buddha experiences the sickness of the body (SN46.16)

On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Now on that occasion the Blessed One was sick, afflicted, gravely ill.

Venerable Kassapa experiences painful feelings (SN46.14)

I hope you are bearing up, Kassapa, I hope you are getting better. I hope that your painful feelings are subsiding and not increasing, and that their subsiding, not their increase, is to be discerned.”
“Venerable sir, I am not bearing up, I am not getting better. Strong painful feelings are increasing in me, not subsiding, and their increase, not their subsiding, is to be discerned.”

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I have explained some of these points above.

This depends on how do you understand anatta. When we say the Buddha experiences the pain, it is the conventional way to address the event. There is no other way to do so.

In your logic, there is no Buddha or person to experience anything. Therefore, the one who taught the Dhamma to the monks does not exist. Who discovered the Dhamma for us?

This is wrong question to ask because it implied the person is the cause of the dependently arisen phenomena. The cause of a dependently arisen phenomena is another dependently arisen phenomena. However, this does not mean that there is nobody experiencing anything. If so, nobody needs to worry about dukkha. I think this is a misunderstanding of the sutta.

Can you quote what existence/experience is not suffering? Are they permanent?

Yes, I can see people mixed up these. This is from the misunderstanding of anatta.

Sorry can’t help further. May you gain the path knowledge in future. Please know the conditions for right view to arise.

I leave you with this DN 9.

I teach the Dhamma for the giving up of these three kinds of existence: ‘When you practice accordingly, corrupting qualities will be given up in you and cleansing qualities will grow. You’ll enter and remain in the fullness and abundance of wisdom, having realized it with your own insight in this very life.’

Poṭṭhapāda, you might think: ‘Corrupting qualities will be given up and cleansing qualities will grow. One will enter and remain in the fullness and abundance of wisdom, having realized it with one’s own insight in this very life. But such a life is suffering.’

But you should not see it like this. Corrupting qualities will be given up and cleansing qualities will grow. One will enter and remain in the fullness and abundance of wisdom, having realized it with one’s own insight in this very life. And there will be only joy and happiness, tranquility, mindfulness and awareness. Such a life is blissful.

As long as one’s present moment is always blissful and joy, one is close to Nibbana. If the present moment is not happy and suffering, then one is not close to Nibbana.

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Thanks for your help. The one who has right view always keeps right speech.

I found a sutta supports this. SN3.3

“Great king, for someone who has been reborn, there’s no exemption from old age and death…"

Even for mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—their bodies are liable to break up and be laid to rest.

This was my first time reading a analysis in my whole Buddha Dharma Path. Thank you. :pray:t4:

Wonderful you did this. Very interesting

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Thanks.

Birth also refers to something what happens in real time. If the mind grasps certain arising emotions or tendencies and we consciousless feed it, we develop a certain mentallity and take birth in that mentallity or temporary existence. This is described in Abhidhamma according a teacher.

In this way all the realms in samsara can be experiences here and now, in this life. In jhana one experiences the deva state. When one has a very agonized mentallity, teared apart from hunger, in great need and mental distress, one experiences the state of a peta. Etc. The Buddha saw there is a correspondance between below and above, inner and outer world, small and large scale.

It is because one knows for oneself that one does not take birth in real time in this live anymore,–i.e there is no grasping, no Me and mine-making anymore–, that one also knows there can be no grasping a new existence after death. Why? Because at that death-moment anything that would arise, not grasped at, will grow cold. It will just vanish. The same in this life. Things that arise but are not grasped at, grow cold. Like a spark in the air. it grows cold.

I belief this is the knowledge of vimutti. It arises from the direct knowledge there is no birth in this live anymore for you personally, no grasping at formations, no Me and mine-making. Ofcourse this may be not something temporarily.

No birth in this life means no re-birth at death. It is the same proces. Without grasping there is no birth in this life. And if there is no grasping and birth in real time in this life, then also not in the death-moment. Anything which arises at that moment will grow cold.

But has one now go out like a flame? Does there remain something? I think there must be according the sutta’s, because otherwise the Buddha would teach that a fully enlightend arahant and Buddha do not exist anymore after death. That he does not.

Anyway, I do not belief that what remains is a personal eternal self.

I think we can find a clue in MN25 if we can understand the sutta.

At the end, “self” is already completely cut off regardless of what it is. Therefore, whatever remaining is indescribable if it cannot be compared or be related to anything.

are you willing to share your understanding?

Look at this:

So then a fourth group of ascetics and brahmins thought up a plan, ‘The first … second … and third groups of ascetics and brahmins … failed to get free of Māra’s power. Why don’t we set up our lair somewhere Māra and his assembly can’t go? Then we can intrude on where Māra has cast the bait and those material delights of the world, and enjoy eating without being reckless. We won’t become indulgent, then we won’t become negligent, and then we won’t be vulnerable to Māra on account of that bait and those material delights of the world.’

And that’s just what they did. And that’s how the fourth group of ascetics and brahmins got free from Māra’s power. This fourth group of ascetics and brahmins is just like the fourth herd of deer, I say.

And where is it that Māra and his assembly can’t go? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra, put out his eyes without a trace, and gone where the Wicked One cannot see.

One can still enjoy the world and be free from Mara’s power by not clinging to the world. However, one will not remain in the world, but take refuge in nibbana after that. Note that, one also does not stay in nibbana forever!

Nibbana is the only place that Mara cannot reach. Therefore, jhana is the tool to get us there.

What is nibbana? It is the absent of the world. It is the ultimate refuge. However, there is nothing there.

If you read my posts above, the pure mind is energy; therefore, there is no way we can destroy it. However, it can change its state. It is not an unchanging atman. When self is uprooted, one will not take that mind as self, but one also does not say that mind is not self.

This is not easy to explain. Therefore, it is best if you could understand it yourself.

That’s how I understand the sutta.

What do you mean with that last remark?

Hmm, that i am not sure of. There is no other tool but wisdom, i belief. One can apply wisdom in jhana but also in a normal daily state of mind. I think it might me a pitfall to belief that wisdom can only be developed and applied in jhana. MN25 describes how Mara is blinded in jhana, but Mara laughs about this, i think, because when one departs from jhana one is again pray of Mara.

Still, i belief jhana is a very direct way to experience or know and see: " i am not vicara, not vitaka, not piti, not kama raga, not patigha, not …because while all this ceases one does not cease. Suppose even tactile feelings would cease, one gets a very direct knowledge one is not the body.
In all this progressive cessation "this i am not, this is not mine, this is not my self’ becomes more real.

I think you might describe here parinibbana but not the Nibbana which is embodied by a living arahant. He experiences a world.

I think energy is a creation of the mind. Energy is created in the stage of cognition (processing a sense-object) which is called javana stage.

What do think of what my mind is understanding now. That most self Buddha say we acquired. Its about traumas. There can be so many things in traumas. Transgenerational trauma from our ancestors. Life events trauma. New Childhood traumas. But most comes from a cause and effect chain that’s in the world.

When we reach Nibbana. We have actually broken the chains that let’s us get effected by these changes. That’s why the need to focus on the root of all. Because most started because them.

For me the main focus of Buddha was that if possible brake the chain immediately in this life of family rebirth that you got. That way we help humanity. That’s why there is end. And I experienced myself how traumas can be ended. I change what I learned from my parents and I change my son by breaking the cycle.

I am explaining what I understand from MN25.

In MN25, wisdom can be found here:

enjoy eating without being reckless . We won’t become indulgent, then we won’t become negligent, and then we won’t be vulnerable to Māra on account of that bait and those material delights of the world.

This also shows that a living arahant does not stay in nibbana all the time. He also experiences the world. However, this also depends on how do we understand what is nibbana?

Science knows energy very well. However, I do not think they see energy as the creation of the mind.

By the way, I only try to explain what I understood from MN25. You can share your understand about that sutta too.

If you can see the cause of the traumas then you can apply the teaching of the Buddha to work it out. Everybody has different kamma and level of understanding. Therefore, there is no single solution for everybody.

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