Translating ‘hoti’ and ‘atthi’ in context of rebirth

Hi Venerable, thanks for a brief structured answer to a somewhat chaotic post.

“To exist in a conditioned way, as a stream of ever-changing phenomena. But look, let’s leave this one behind, shall we?”

Yup! More than happy! :wink:

“I don’t agree with this. I think “survive” is a more emotive word than “exist”.”

OK. I think in the back of my head I’m connecting “survival” mostly with the kind you do on a deserted island.

But apart from that, I think to use “exist” in “the Thatagata exists” connects more directly to bhava as
“continued existence” (which I like a lot), “craving for existence”, and suchlike terms, which I think are very powerful. (Bhava also coming from hoti of course.) [I typed this before I read your reply to Stephen.]

“No, I render it as “no longer survives”. You could use “now does not survive”, but it’s less idiomatic.”

I see. I guess I would have expected “now no longer survives”, as I’m now so accustomed to read just the na (here in natthi) as “no longer”. The underlying point, though, is that on the surface the statement looks more like it’s about the present moment, the view “I have no self”.

“Words, phrases, ideas, idioms, keep popping up and permutating all over the place, and the firm hand of consistency is essential to maintaining clarity of meaning. […] When you neglect consistency, you think it’s fine.”

I’m not saying it’s fine to neglect it. I’ve even made a script that automatically replaces phrases and permutations, probably like your Bilara does. In such cases, definitely be consistent. But I’m saying (probably in a clumsy way) is that what we are talking about here are not the same phrases or idioms, and I think also not (all) the same ideas. So therefore here there is imo no need to be consistent and use “survive” everywhere. I think that may be taking consistently too far the other way.

Anyway, I think all our “disagreements” are only on the level of personal choice. I prefer your draft translations for over the old ones, and if you decide to keep them, I’ll rejoice! I guess I’d just do them somewhat differently. But then again, I can do that!

Just the Ananda-Vacchagotta sutta, that’s a hard one, but I’ve said that a few times already. :slight_smile: It’s not even that I disagree with anything per se. It’s just that I don’t know if I agree! I’ll give it some time.

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