Translating tattha ṭhito

In AN 9.36, Bodhi translates tattha ṭhito as ‘firm in this’:

So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti.

If he is firm in this, he attains the destruction of the taints.

@sujato translates it as ‘standing firm’:

Standing firm in that they attain the ending of defilements.

However in AN 4.123, in the context of the first jhāna, @sujato translates it as ‘set on that’:

Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.

If they’re set on that, committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Group.

Consulting the PED, I find:

tattha:
A. 1. of place: (a) place where= there, in that place […]; often with eva: tatth’ eva right there, on the (very same) spot S I.116; J II.154; PvA 27. In this sense as introduction to a comment on a passage: in this, here, in this connection

And

thita:
[pp. of tiṭṭhati=Gr. στατόσ , Lat. status, Celt. fossad (firm)] standing, i. e. (seeṭhāna I) either upright (opp. nisinna, etc.), or immovable, or being, behaving in general. In the latter function often (with ger.) pleonastic for finite verb (cp.ṭhapita); – resting in, abiding in (–° or with loc.); of time: lasting, enduring; fig. steadfast, firm, controlled

I found the reference to abiding particularly interesting, since very often we find talk of abiding in jhāna, albeit with viharati.

Could this be a fair translation?

abiding in that

Or, taking into account ‘lasting, enduring’:

continued abiding in that

So then for the first passage:

So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti.

If he abides in this, he attains the destruction of the taints.

Or if we take on board the ‘lasting, enduring’ of thita:

If he continues in abiding in this, he attains the destruction of the taints.

This English is very different from ‘standing firm’. Which do you think is better supported by the Pāli? Or, any better suggestions?

And how about tabbahulavihārī in that second passage? The PED tells us of bahula:

full of, rich in, fig. given to, intent on, devoted to

vihārin:

dwelling, living; being in such & such a state or condition

And of course it relates to viharati:

to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn

I am not sure what the tab is doing here - can anyone help? But for now moving on…

Elsewhere @sujato translates viharati as ‘remains’:

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

And I believe ‘abide in’ is also an accepted translation by some for this context.

So rather than ‘meditate on it often’, how about this:

devoted to dwelling in it

or:

devoted to abiding in it

Remembering that that this is referring the first jhāna (and later for the rest of the four jhānas), this would give us:

If they’re abiding in that, committed to it, and devoted to abiding in it without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Group.

This gives me a very different feel to this passage. What do you think?

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Some interesting points, thanks.

I’d avoid rendering both vihara and ṭhita* with “abides” in the same passage.

One nuance that affects the rendering here is the use of adhimutta in the same context. This has the sense of “commitment, decision”, and flavours the passage a little. The question is, I guess, whether the passage is emphasizing that one is dedicated to remaining in such a state, or whether one simply remains in it. Both are implied, but the way the terms are rendered might bring out one or other aspect.

On reflection, it is probably the case that the renderings of Ven Bodhi and myself were probably a little over-influenced by the presence of adhimutta, and a thinner rendering of ṭhita is perhaps more advisable (the “principle of least meaning”).

On the other hand, rendering bahula as “devoted” is overly-egged. It really just means “practices it frequently”, “does it a lot”. In such cases, vihāra and its derivatives often refer specifically to meditation, hence my rendering here.

Tab is simply a sandhi form of tad i.e. “that”, so the compound resolves as: *tad-bahula-vihārī" (that-much-meditator)

Perhaps I should revise my rendering to:

If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Group.

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Cool!

The Buddha often used sequences of equivelent terms to emphasise things, right? I think it was maybe you who pointed this out to me? I am slightly concerned about ‘meditate’ - partly because some people may take it to mean what we would call ‘contemplation’ in Tibetan Buddhism at least. But I like the meaning of viharati in the sense of abiding, dwelling in, a particular state. Which ‘meditate’ does not really make explicit, seeming to be a very broad term.

So to preserve the specificity of viharati, I am thinking maybe:
If they abide in that, are committed to it, and abide in it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Group.

If that seems ok, at least I might use it in the context of my research. I am trying to be very careful with terms for the purpose of analysing what the Buddha was saying with reference to meditation.

I also have a proposal for changing a related passage in AN 9.36

‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.

Bodhi:

‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’

@sujato:
“This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.”

Here is my own proposal. I only differ from you @sujato on ‘virāgo’ - does mine seem acceptable?:

‘This is peaceful, this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, the absence of desire, cessation, extinguishment.’

Here is my reasoning, from my notes, in the context of why I changed mine from Bodhi’s version:
Sujato has “This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.” I prefer his translation of taṇhākkhayo, although they are both true to the Pāli.

Bodhi’s and Sujato’s agreement here on sabbasaṅkhārasamatho as ‘the stilling of all activities’, I agree with. However, in SN 48.50 above, Bodhi translates this same word as ‘the stilling of all formations’. This, I disagree with - it is a very unnatural expression and ‘formations’ gives no obvious meaning at all to an ordinary reader. I have therefore translated it as ‘the stilling of all formations’ there also.

I feel he better reflects the meaning of the Pāli for sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo - the PED gives ‘foundation, basis, ground,’ and ‘attachment’ for upadhi, and ‘giving up, forsaking; rejection, renunciation’ for paṭinissagga.

For virāgo I do not much like the word ‘dispassion’. The Oxford English Dictionary defines dispassion as “not influenced by strong emotion, and so able to be rational and impartial”. Althought etymologically concerned with affect and literally an equivelent term, I feel this term inappropriately gives the idea of the cognitive functioning of the mind (of which rationality is necessarily a part), with connotations of a kind of cold, non-caring distance, which I do not believe the Pāli means to imply. I believe it is an affective, not cognitive term. Thus I prefer a term which more readily conjures this image in the mind of the reader. Furthermore, it’s not a word that many young people understand, and even the word ‘passion’ is very vague.

I am also dissatisfied with Sujato’s ‘fading away’. The PED mentions the following for virāga, it gives the following primary meaning: “1. absence of rāga, dispassionateness, indifference towards (abl. or loc.) disgust, absence of desire, destruction of passions; waning, fading away, cleansing, purifying; emancipation, Arahantship.”

While it does make mention ‘fading away’, here, especially in the context of the preceding two terms, I feel it is communicating the absence of rāga in the sense of rāga being a disturbing (negative) affect, one with a sense of attachment, desire, or greediness. And I think ‘desire’ is a good word to settle for, thus adopting the PED’s ‘absence of desire’, which would seem to be supported by the explanation of virāga in the Aggappasāda Sutta, Iti 90.

Regarding nibbānan, while I usually prefer to leave it untranslated as Bodhi did, in this context I feel it is good to translate it, because we have so many associations with the word even as English speaking people, that it is more useful to see the specific qualitative reference side by side with the others in this list, made explicit in English.